• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

DocDesastro

Lt. General
65 Badges
Jul 2, 2011
1.254
1.049
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Island Bound
  • Empire of Sin
  • Empire of Sin - Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
I have spend some time reading on the topic of demographics and how they might affect a city. Reading other posts here there is a wish for meaningful behavior of CIMs and development of the city in accord with CIMs financial power, education and jobs leading to new challenges.

First, I would like to introduce some terms I will be using to avoid misunderstandings.
The system, I propose bases on the assumption, that CIMs live in households. This will be a bit abstracted as it is necessary for the game to cope with otherwise too many factors.

Education: the level of education an individual has obtained. This covers skills needed to be able to live as a grown-up person. This influences socialization. A highly educated person does not tend to commit petty crimes so I believe higher education has a dampening effect on criminality. Also it helps getting job qualifications.

Qualification: The level of skill acquired for performing well in a job. This is something, I want to seperate from education. Education helps you in getting a higher qualification but being polite and well-behaved does not help you fix a car. Otherwise, being able to fix a car does not make you a humble Holy Mother Theresa. Qualification limits the job a CIM can take.

Job Income: The factor depicting, how wealthy a CIM will be. Each household collects it's wealth from contributing working adults. This income will be taxed and the rest will be spend on rent, consumables, leisure, health care and so on.

Motivation: An abstract concept of one or two random traits giving rise to certain CIM behavior. A pious CIM, for example, would like to have a church around and visit it in leisure time. A cultural CIM would instead like libraries, opera houses and visit those. A security-loving person would like police coverage and low crime.

Happiness: The degree the CIM's demands are met. Unhappy CIMs might become criminal or leave town for a better place to live.

So basically, each CIM can be described with 6 bytes depicting those things.

Now, what to do with it? A CIM in your town starts his own household. His job income will dictate a bit, what kind of residence he will occupy. The housing should come with a kind of fixed cost depending on how luxorious the house is. This means: I want houses being built but it depends on whether there are people willing to move there. Usually, if some land is zoned ans sold, some people buy the land and buy a house for themselves. We have that already. Some houses are built however by companies or investors and rented away or sold later. This means, I expect houses being errected but not being populated at once. Long things short: A CIM will only move into a house he can afford. Affordable housing is crucial. We might only need a mechanism depicting how and why certain buildings are built. The mayor should be able to place social residences to subside poor CIMs to counter ghettoization. His income also would determine whether he can afford a car or not. If not, he would most likely go by train or bus. His education has determined how high his qualification is and what job he has. His Motivation will determine, what kind of other infrastructure he might want in his town and visit those places. Also he needs consumables like foodstuff and general goods which might come in different classes. Basic goods cover foodstuff, toilet paper and so on and every CIM needs that and will spend money on it. In turn, stores having those goods will be visited and gain income and prosper. Advanced commodities cover electronics, furniture and similar items. The CIMs will need them from time to time. A poor CIM, however will not buy lots of those. Luxory items however will be demanded by rich CIMs but not be bought by poor. So your jeweller might only be visited once and a while or by armed figures wearing silly masks...
CIMs will also spend money on random leisure activities. Their Motivation treat however tilts some of those into certain directions. A football fan will visit a stadium more often than a church or restaurant. It would be interesting, to see the CIM going to different directions to cover his needs. If he cannot satisfy his demands, he will become unhappy, which is bad. A CIM might leave town because of this making you lose jobs, have empty houses and empty coffers. OTOH, if there are many CIMs having similar demands, it is more likely that shops or facilities open up to meet those demands shaping your town.
This is the basic idea.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Upvote 0

DocDesastro

Lt. General
65 Badges
Jul 2, 2011
1.254
1.049
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Island Bound
  • Empire of Sin
  • Empire of Sin - Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Which is...not helpful to depict demographics.
Long things said short - there has to be a model for it implemented over time. Otherwise, the game would not depict 'realistic' behavior of CIMs. I know, that it is happiness currently.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:

DocDesastro

Lt. General
65 Badges
Jul 2, 2011
1.254
1.049
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Island Bound
  • Empire of Sin
  • Empire of Sin - Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
I thought a bit more and consulted other games with the same content (demographics). To mention the most prominent I would call out for SC:Societies, Cities in Motion, and the boardgame City Council. The intriguing part of Societies, albeit it was a lame excuse for a city simulator like its predecessors had something I liked. There were different kinds of citizens in your town which worked the day and went for leisure the rest of the day. Work earned you money but made the citizens unhappy over time and they would go to visit special buildings to get "happiness". Children would need other buildings than grown-ups but their happiness would contribute to the household they belong to. Visiting buildings could also have positive and negative side-effects. E.g. going to a pub made happy, but had a chance for each visitor to become a sick person in need of a hospital. A happy worker worked more efficient and produced more money and some buildings had the ability to produce some special workers if enough happy persons or persons of a certain kind have visited it. A sick worker for example would not contribute and get unhappy or might even die because of bad health.
A gambling den or too many tourists for example could produce pickpockets which run around and raise crime level unless they are arrested by the police. Citizens could buy certain gadgets for their house (art, furniture, cars) raising the overall happiness for their living space. To use a certain service the citizen could first have enough cash or level of wealth like being a $, $$ or $$$ CIM. This determines whether he would be able to use the service. A $ CIM would not use a $$$-Spa. a $$$-CIM could use a $-Bar but would get less happiness from it. A building also has a limit of how many persons it can serve in one day and has opening hours. A $-CIM would not live in a $$$-Villa. A $$-CIM could live in a $-Apartment but would not like this and would look for other houses of $$-level or try to decorate his building with gadgets bought somewhere.
CIMs would need to shop, go to leisure places and have an overall $-Attribute determining what they can do and what not. Also, they could have a random interest like sports, arts, food, parks, music and similar which would determine which buildings they would visit primarily, if possible.
Example: a $-CIM with interest in sports might go to a $-soccer field (which has the ability to produce hooligans and injured). A $$$-CIM with interest in sport might go there as well but would prefer a $$$ tennis court. A $$$-CIM with interests in music would look for something like an opera or, if not possible look at least for another $$$ leisure place.
Now add the possibility of buildings having opening and work hours. Let a pub open at 6 p.m. and close at 2 a.m. Workers in their free time can use it. The people working there, however, cannot and need different solutions for them which might be open at day.
Why would one want such a difficult thing? Well: meaningful commuters. Some persons return from their jobs at certain times causing congestion in your traffic system and give making bus schedules a lot more meaningful. The buildings could check themselves. If a certain place plops up the program counts the visitors. Good, if maximum reached - bad if not which could lead to the business closing down again in long turn.

Let us talk a bit in a practical manner:
Let us create a housing first. We zone a residental area and wait a bit. Dependent on demand and land value an investor will build a housing. Let there be a $$-condonium for 6 families. Those will move in over time. The condo will start to produce $ for the city coffers when taxed depending on how many families living there.

Now we create a job. Let us zone an industrial zone nearby and create the ACME anvil factory. The building has capacity for 2 $$$ jobs, 10 $$ and 15 $ jobs. The work hours are Mo-Fr from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. If the goods type is relevant for something let us assume heavy industry. It produces 2 lorries each day trying to deliver goods or export them.

As there are now jobs, persons will move to our town. Enter John and Jane Doe with their daughter Jillian Doe. They will move into the condo and occupy one of the appartments.
John will get a $$-Job and has interests in sports. Jane would not have a job yet. Jillian is a child and would need to go to school from 8 a.m. to 1 p.m.
The household's overall wealth would be $$ as currently only one of them is working. John leaves the house and goes to his job at the anvil factory. Since there is no bus and he hasn't got a car yet he goes by foot or bike if it is not too far away. (Random chance for familiy having car upon spawning). He will work there until 4 p.m. and will return home then. The happiness of this household will sink now as one of those has worked. John will leave the house in the evening, looking for leisure.

Let us zone a commercial zone nearby and voilá: let there be a sports bar. A sports bar offers 1 $$ and 3 $ jobs and serves 10 CIMs per evening, has a $-rating and attracts CIMs with interests in sports and food. It opens TUE to SUN at 6 p.m. and closes at 2 a.m. A pub will raise the happiness by 2 units for the visitor with matching interests and 1 for others.
John is a $$-CIM so he would be able to go there and since there are no $$-sport buildings he will go there. He will get, however, less happiness as he is more sophisticated ($$ vs. $) and only get the half effect, raising his happiness again by one. Now the extra giggles: let there be a small chance that the bar will spawn a hooligan per visitor. those will run around and raise the criminality rating of the places they pass and whack CIMs (those will lower their health rating giving raise for a clinic or coroner) unless arrested by the police. Also, let there be a certain chance that the building itself lowers the health of the persons visiting it (too much alcohol).

Now Jane Doe sees the sports bar open up and signs up as waitress ($-job). Do you see that she work 6 days a week and at other times than her husband? So she will contribute to the family wealth a bit raising it to $$$ (needed to determine what items they can buy at shops) but also gets unhappy 6 days a week. She is interested in culture. She will go to work at 6 p.m. and get home at 2 a.m.
She will need leisure as well, but she cannot use the sports bar for herself as she works there during opening times. Luckily our sneaky mayor has built a public library she can visit over day.

Jillian goes to school and will use facilities like playgrounds or similar things which are childsafe. A child cannot enter the sports bar - even if interested in sports!

Conclusion: what does this system offer?
Commuting hours dependant of the buildings in town. Different pathes for the CIMs because of their different behavior interest-wise.
Minor random effects resulting from buildings visited giving demand for services like police, clinics and similar.
Different shopping behavior because of family's overall wealth. Meaningful happiness system. Placing an opera into a slum does not make sense - the $-CIMs will not visit a $$$ play.
Different work hours and days give raise for a closer look at train and bus schedules. You might have city spots with a real nightlife and congestion at certain hours or days of the week. No need for Godzilla stoming your town or hailing meteors.

The biggest problem is: can such a thing be implemented? The simple thing would be flagging CIMs and buildings adding some bits of information to each CIM and building. The rules of interaction might be easy as well...but overall?
 
  • 4
Reactions:

DocDesastro

Lt. General
65 Badges
Jul 2, 2011
1.254
1.049
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Island Bound
  • Empire of Sin
  • Empire of Sin - Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Nah....game is doing fine. I just fear that other aspects than designing a city and dropping meteors on it come a bit short. A city is its citizens - not fancy buildings or desasters.
 
Last edited:

Radltruhe

First Lieutenant
9 Badges
Mar 13, 2016
268
100
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
Hi,

I really like your ideas of income for CIM's - I also mentioned some ideas here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...does-and-shelters.977753/page-2#post-22023477, maybe some fit here too.

It also let me think on interests of CIMs
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ior-interests-expansion.967248/#post-21795978

If an upcoming expansion would go into that direction it would be easier to understand the simulation part why somebody now wants to go from one end to the other end in city.
The stats info displays not just the information to where he/she goes it tells us why and the motivation.

If we see infos like "big sportsfan", "likes art", "gourmet", "likes to dance", "alcoholic" (*g*) it makes sense for the player why he wants to reach the destination.
For example we could figure out by ourself, that the personality of someone is more extroverted and he likes going to leisure zones meeting other people in bars.
If we have lot's of people travelling to the same area for a long distance by the same reason we could optimize traffic and zone such a leisure commercial district next to this home.

I really would love such a game mechanic and it would bring more personality to CIMs and we could better understand their needs.
 

DocDesastro

Lt. General
65 Badges
Jul 2, 2011
1.254
1.049
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Island Bound
  • Empire of Sin
  • Empire of Sin - Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
I got back to the roots this weekend and reinstalled Societies on my PC to learn about the model depicted there. The first thing: The way you build your city is...cough...strange.
Build a power plant - no need for cables. Build a street - well it also works without. Build jobs and houses, but YOU must decide which ones. Frankly, from a city builder sight this is sub-par. BUT: the intrigueing part is the following: The - or at least some - buildings work as people spawner. People go to work. People return. People visit ventures to increase happiness. Tourists are attracted in a similar way. And the way the people are created determines their needs and this in return will have impact of where they will be going. There are tiny bits influencing all this. E.g. certain buildings are an eyesore leading to reduced happiness produced by the ventures they are near. This they did well.
In the game the needs for turists could be roughly divided into the following:
- Worship (Altars, temples and churches did provide this)
- Entertainment (cinemas, museums)
- Dining (bars and restaurants)
- Leisure (Parks, spas)
- Adventure (sports stadium, theme parks)
- Gambling (Casinos)
Tourists also wanted the feature Accomodation (hotels)
When a tourist enters town he was part of a certain group and those had different needs. They were spawned at certain locations like taxi stops, big bus stops and so on.
E.g. a spring breaker-type tourist would want Leisure, Food and Entertainment as well as Accomodation.
A church would give worship, so it would be bad for that tourist, if that would be the only spot to go. A beach resort venue however, would make him happy. A pilgrim type would only care for worship and accomodation. A day-tripper would not care for accomodation but leisure. A Gourmand would care for high-class food, so the burger joint would not be enough but the 4-star restaurant would make him happy.
The way citizens work is a bit opaque for me. Children can only visit child-safe places but the other factors for citizens is random. The ventures make them happy. Shop type ventures would sell items for the citizens to carry around giving a bonus happiness for a certain number of days unless he needs another one. Some can be taken home to equip the household like antiquities or furniture to add to the happiness the house offers. But at least all that gave everybody a reason to run around. Also, industry could react to certain aspects of the city. If you have many buildings of the Corporate type you might want to build a corparate security HQ. This building spawns private security personel protecting rich housings or offices preventing burglar type CIMs from entering them. Same is true for certain ventures - there was a chance that a building produced a special citizen like a mime, a con artist, a criminal, an elder or whatever having impact on your city. The more you build your city to a certain style, the more frequent a certain type of citizen will happen. You build many farms? Well, farmers might appear and buff restaurants they visit with fresh food. Clowns make people happy passing by, pickpockets will rob citizens making them unhappy and so on. This all added life depending on the buildings placed. There should be more functionality to the buildings affecting the life of the CIMs.
 
  • 1
Reactions: