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Mar 18, 2016
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Quick question about your whole mercenaries wouldn't have access to warships because they wouldn't have access to the infrastructure needed argument. What's stopping them from using already existing space ports built by empires to build their ships? I mean we don't know how the ports are owned by the empire itself, or merely by private groups who than take payments to build the ships. And even if all the ports are 100 percent under the control of the empire government, there are Government types (mega corps) and personalities ( ruthless capitalists) who would probably not mind selling military vessels to those who can afford them. Or who said they needed to build the ships themselves. They could salvage a ship that was destroyed in space battle, send it to a civilian port to be repaired (costly, but not near as costly as building from scratch), and than buy weapons surplus weapons ( where do you think all those weapons go that you remove from ships when you "upgrade" them) to fit them with. Really, I can easily see someone with some start money doing this.

I can see the merit of that argument. However, for that argument to feel consistent then empires would need to be able to do the same thing: order ships from one another's yards, contract with third party builders, rebuild wreckage, etc.

Otherwise you potentially end up with a situation where a group of private individuals from your empire managed to acquire a form of hardware that your empire itself could not (because its yards were busy or too small or whatever.) To me, this breaks the suspension of disbelief.

Thinking about it, I'm at peace with the idea that a small but advanced empire might build huge shipyards and let people buy ships from them rather than building their own. That would be an interesting diplomatic dynamic, because it would make their FTL method the de-facto standard and would mean that becoming their enemy would potentially relegate your fleet to second-class status.

That's a fun idea. Thanks!
 

Wolfshield156

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I can see the merit of that argument. However, for that argument to feel consistent then empires would need to be able to do the same thing: order ships from one another's yards, contract with third party builders, rebuild wreckage, etc.

Otherwise you potentially end up with a situation where a group of private individuals from your empire managed to acquire a form of hardware that your empire itself could not (because its yards were busy or too small or whatever.) To me, this breaks the suspension of disbelief.

Thinking about it, I'm at peace with the idea that a small but advanced empire might build huge shipyards and let people buy ships from them rather than building their own. That would be an interesting diplomatic dynamic, because it would make their FTL method the de-facto standard and would mean that becoming their enemy would potentially relegate your fleet to second-class status.

That's a fun idea. Thanks!
Well other than using another empire's ship yard, it could be entirely possible that is what happening your shipyards. I mean really don't have any details about how the ships are constructed, just that you order one up and they are built. I do really want to deal with rival companies and ship yard crews ( I assume this is what you mean't by Third party) whenever you want a new ship.

And I can see a shipyard reusing wrecks and their parts from a old battle that happen in the system to cut cost if possible ( while still charging you full price, the greedy bastards), just because it isn't specifically stated doesn't mean that isn't happening. Tough I think having third parties construction companies having a nice smell for a future update, what with companies having specialties like being able to build ships quickly but at greater cost, being able to make a better versions of certain classes of ships at the cost of another class, using construction methods that improve the overall HP of all your ships at cost of time and wealth, or maybe reducing the cost of building certain types of weapons with a suitable con( can't think of one). Or maybe you don't want to deal with the hassle or are role playing a Empire that isn't capitalists, you can have a law that nationalizes the shipyards.

If something like this was to be added, I think the companies should by dynamic and procedurally generated. So one game you might have one company that really good at building Destroyers which will affect what you build, but the next game you won't have this one, so you need to adapt what you want in this game. They can also by dynamic by allowing new companies to form, and for old ones to break up for any number of reasons. Which can allow for things like you company you are currently using going belly up, and you have the choice to bail them out for a one time fee, or finding an alternative company to take over the construction of your ships, and if this happens while you are building a new fleet, suddenly you have different set of stats for your ships.

Finally while most companies will only build ships for their host empire, that empire might issue a law allowing a company to start building outside their borders, probably for increase in minerals and/or energy. So the company will than go to foreign empires and request the right to set up shop their, giving that empire the chance to use them instead of their own native companies for a increase cost.

Man, I started to reply to you, and now I got completely different DLC idea here.
 

lwarmonger

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Blackwater is a good example: they are not as good at fighting as an actual first-world army, or indeed as some of the insurgents they've gone up against. They are also deeply unpopular with the civilian populations of those countries, far more so than either professional armies or locally-raised forces.

Blackwater is simply the mercenary group that made the news, primarily because of a single massacre and their ranks being chiefly comprised of westerners. There were numerous other security companies that provided and provide local security to military and civilian installations that the world knows nothing about because either A) there were no massacres with them, or B) they hired mainly Ugandans/Argentinians/Afghanis/I'm sure there are a few nationalities I haven't seen (and from a Western news media perspective, massacres involving two sets of people who aren't Westerners aren't particularly newsworthy unless they are quite large). So in that regard, I would say that Blackwater is an exception rather than the rule.

In the longer term, as we've seen in Iraq, the conduct of mercenary forces and ill-disciplined regulars creates enough public outcry that it can force the newly-installed client government to turn against its liberator. This "turning against" needn't be in the sense of a military uprising; it might only be in the sense of revoking political ties and becoming a satellite of one's enemies instead, but that's hardly a good outcome.

Blaming private security firms for the difficulties the US had in Iraq isn't really accurate. Our issues sprung from the fact that 1) Representative democracy ran directly counter to the best interests of a small but relatively effective Sunni population that had governed the region for a very long time (from the Sunni side), and 2) the Iraqis always knew the US was leaving... and they always knew the Iranians would still be right next door (from the Shia side). The first insurgency (Saddam loyalist instigated) started before the negative press regarding security companies and largely created a demand for their use. The second insurgency revolved primarily around sectarian civil war, and was a result of many years of geographical mixing without resolving any of the underlying differences between tribes and religions. Once the strong and violent central authority that had kept those differences in check (namely the Iraqi military and secret police) was disbanded it became a free for all over money, territory and power. The US, private security firms and military, was more of a spectator caught in the middle of that one than the primary force, and the "sorting out" period resolved itself with an enormous amount of bloodshed that occurred with a US military force that was much too small to slow it down, much less stop it.

If this was the case in Stellaris, I wouldn't use them to pacify a newly-conquered planet if I actually wanted to keep that planet and its people. I also wouldn't use them if my goal was to stabilise the planet and turn it into a prosperous ally. I also wouldn't use them if I thought there would be real fighting, because that's what I have real soldiers for. I might, however, use them if I wanted to make the planet stop fighting against me and didn't really care what happened to it afterwards so long as it didn't involve me.

This also seems to be the attitude of the Americans in Iraq and the Saudis in Yemen.

So you use them primarily to augment your manpower in a way that isn't visible to your public and the world, as well as fill short term capability gaps. Nobody really cares if a contractor dies, but soldiers are newsworthy. Contractors also don't count against your troop numbers when those troop numbers are very carefully monitored by the news media. Finally, they can do things that you don't want to tie your combat troops up in, don't have the loggies to do for your either, but that still need to get done. Remember, every ECP that has to be defended means one less platoon going on patrol or going on raids. You don't need the best defending ECP's most of the time, but you do need someone.

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R43074.pdf

An interesting open source look at contracting. BLUF is though that we don't use contractors to comprise roughly 50% of our "workforce" in places like Iraq (they aren't there to fight) because we want to. We use them because it is a more politically palatable (and financially viable) choice than doubling the size of our military for a counterinsurgency campaign.

So one final point. I would argue that not using private contractors, at least in the context of COIN, would be at best a double edged sword. Why? Because when contractors shoot people they shouldn't because they are poorly trained, it creates some negative publicity that is spread out between the US and the firm, but the pictures at the end of the day are of people NOT in American uniforms. That really does make a difference. Taking boatloads of poorly trained conscripts (which is really your other alternative to using contractors) and putting them on the streets of Baghdad/Baqubah/Falluja/wherever is setting conditions for a series of poor decisions resulting in uniformed American soldiers (conscripts) shooting people they shouldn't. That really does make a significant difference. Especially since many of the contractors we have build up considerable experience or already have such experience when they are hired... something conscripts wouldn't have.
 
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Valyrian_Knight

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I think the ideas are maybe going a little bit too far. For the ships, the whole idea of ship companies have some good potential, but it is not really about mercenaries themselves , more about other gameplay mecanics. But if we are going to discuss about that, I would say, if they are really wealthy (the money they get should be part of their reserves of money or something, rather than not being used ) , they can potentially afford some great ships. I mean, a galactic -wide famous elite mercenary soldiers could gain plenty of money and so eventually invest in ships. Not completely unbelievable.
 

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No one is obligated to tolerate mercenaries. If a bank robber hired some mercenaries to help him rob banks, the mercenaries would get tried as bank robbers for helping him.

If a drug lord hired some mercenaries and his compound got raided by the government, and his hired muscle opened fire on the government forces, they would have a whole littany of charges facing them for doing so.

If al qaeda labeled themselves as mercenaries hired by bin laden, no one would find that as an acceptable excuse either.

So please, enough of this hired by anyone to do anything hollywood nonsense.
 
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PichuTrainer

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A Mercenary by definition is a hired gun, someone who does something for money. So they are still mercenaries if they are tried as Bank Robbers, but they are being charged for the crime. A Police Officer who assaults someone on the street is tried for assaulting someone whether they are a Police Officer or not. Same goes for Soldiers that go out to another country as part of their military and commit murders or rapes, they are tired as a Murderer or a Rapist. So you don't make a good point at all in my opinion.
 
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Same goes for Soldiers that go out to another country as part of their military and commit murders or rapes, they are tired as a Murderer or a Rapist. So you don't make a good point at all in my opinion.

The thing is that they mostly aren't, and this causes uproar. A good example is the Haditha Massacre. Armies tend to protect their soldiers even when those soldiers are in the wrong.
 

PichuTrainer

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The thing is that they mostly aren't, and this causes uproar. A good example is the Haditha Massacre. Armies tend to protect their soldiers even when those soldiers are in the wrong.
Depends on the country. I know in the UK most soldiers that do commit crimes are sentenced. But you also get cases where Soldiers are Jailed due to evidence being held back which can either prove they are innocent or give them a lesser charge.
 

Cruxador

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As for mercenary ships: it depends on whether it's possible for warships to be produced by non-state actors, either purpose-built or converted from civilian ships.
We have already seen that it is; the pirates do it.

However, for that argument to feel consistent then empires would need to be able to do the same thing: order ships from one another's yards, contract with third party builders, rebuild wreckage, etc.
This sounds within the scope of a potential future DLC.
 

SanguineGus

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No, the difference is that they are hired explicitly to shoot at people, and being shot at is something that societies need to act against in the first place.

If a bunch of space slimes showed up on your doorstep and started shooting things, then you would reasonably conclude that the slimes had declared war on you, you would not care that they had invented some special designation for some of themselves, which let them imagine that they could have some of their slimes shoot at you, while not taking accountability for having provided those slimes with the means to shoot at you in the first place.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
 
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der_butschi

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As was stated earlier, I can see mercenaries as ground forces. Real space navies? No.

We see mercenaries or private security contractors or whatever you are inclinded to call them around the world as ground forces. That works pretty well because such a group can hire individual soldiers and equip them with light weapons, meaning small arms weapons, LAW, etc. A few retrofitted civilian helicopters maybe, or even a light tank.

But there are reasons why we don't see mercenarie air forces or fleets. a) That stuff is expensive. b) That stuff is usually subject to more or less strict controls and restrictions. c) To operate, e.g., a ship, it is not enough to hire individual soldiers but you need a whole crew with specialists in a lot of different roles. You also need quite the infrastructure around it.

Having a whole fleet of space mercenaries manning space ships, being available from some generic pool... well that would feel very strange. It could work if an empire was made up of small groups, like a clan or feudal system, where each clan/group has its own fleets and space ports. But mercenaries like in EU4 (ground armies!) but in space would not work well for me.
 
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SanguineGus

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Just because the victims are too impotent to do anything in retaliation doesn't mean that they wouldn't feel justified in taking reprisal if the opportunity presented itself.
 
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Michael Hunt

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Sins of a Solar Empire had an interesting way to deal with mercs. One of the factions could upgrade their tech and gained all pirates as allies. Not altogether clear on how it would work in Stellaris, but something to bear in mind,

Agree with the idea of ground forces only.
 

lwarmonger

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But there are reasons why we don't see mercenarie air forces or fleets. a) That stuff is expensive. b) That stuff is usually subject to more or less strict controls and restrictions. c) To operate, e.g., a ship, it is not enough to hire individual soldiers but you need a whole crew with specialists in a lot of different roles. You also need quite the infrastructure around it.

Having a whole fleet of space mercenaries manning space ships, being available from some generic pool... well that would feel very strange. It could work if an empire was made up of small groups, like a clan or feudal system, where each clan/group has its own fleets and space ports. But mercenaries like in EU4 (ground armies!) but in space would not work well for me.

I guess that depends on whether corporations own fleets of commercial vessels. Because if A) Corporations own large commercial fleets (which will not be in at release, although it is kind of implied), and B) Pirates are there to attack those commercial fleets (which pirates are already in), then it would make sense for C) Corporations to contract either their own private security force, or hire ships from a third party. And if the private sector does it, why not the public sector?

None of this though (pirates too, which are already included) really makes much sense without some kind of private sector.
 
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I guess that depends on whether corporations own fleets of commercial vessels. Because if A) Corporations own large commercial fleets (which will not be in at release, although it is kind of implied), and B) Pirates are there to attack those commercial fleets (which pirates are already in), then it would make sense for C) Corporations to contract either their own private security force, or hire ships from a third party. And if the private sector does it, why not the public sector?

None of this though (pirates too, which are already included) really makes much sense without some kind of private sector.

Corporations do own fleets in Stellaris. They own planets too. There is an advanced government type called "Megacorporation" which we saw one of the Blorg vassals switch to.
 
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Corporations do own fleets in Stellaris. They own planets too. There is an advanced government type called "Megacorporation" which we saw one of the Blorg vassals switch to.

True... I view that as less of a corporation in the traditional sense as a government run along corporate lines. I was referring to a private sector in my comment. Was the East India Company a corporation or a government? The answer is yes, but I think of that as an exceptional case.