[Suggestion] Introduction of Roleplay-elements and redesigning Character Stats

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DocDesastro

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Since I upgraded my computer to enjoy the game I had a blast playing. After some hours in the game, certain aspects of it have become a bit shallow and regarding the greatness of the universe itself, I collected my thoughts a bit to think about the game if I would have designed it - or at least post my ideas her.

The biggest 'problem' I have with the game is the way my 'company' is managed. The tactical game-play is fair enough.
Game starts promising: You create your alter ego with background and fun stuff that remind you of the old rule books for the board-game but also for the BT:RPG. I was happy, that HBS picked that up. Later on, I realized, that this is almost cosmetic only and does not really do much besides giving you starting stats and unlock certain dialogue options in the campaign. You can have 8 mechwarriors but you will most likely only use 4 with one or two spares for the occasional injury. Putting insult to injury, I am restricted to a single lance. Game design issues. Yeah...Talking mercenaries we are talking companies and these are at least HQ lance +1-3 lances if we are not talking about merc regiments with complementary assets like infantry and vehicles. Tech bay and medics are abstracted numbers and perks seem to add minor fluff only, but not crunch.

So talking about role-playing...we are talking of managing a company of warriors...of individuals. A motley crew of hired guns. There is so much potential there instead of reducing them to 4 stats. Currently, they are interchangeable with no real consequences.

Having some traits present and intermixed with others on a small ship should rise to synergy or trouble. Having certain traits should be meaningful.

Example: A mechwarrior with background 'House Marik soldiery' should have moral problems when fighting his old comrades in arms on the battlefield thus have his morale impaired during the fight getting worse with each kill he inflicts. On the other hand, they could be very eager fighting a traditional enemy.
A mechwarrior with the tech skill might add +1 to the overall tech skill as he is handled as an astech and helps out Yang and the guys at mechbay.
Somebody with pirate or criminal origins could raise the chance of finding rare stuff on a planet with a black market or help getting better conditions when working for pirates. Or in case of the criminals C-Bllls start to vanish on occasions. Or has the probability raised, that a pirate contract will show up. Commoners and aristocrats mingled together? Expect problems. So when going to the hiring hall, pay attention on the background of your employees-to-be.

Some of the traits are innate and the characters come with them and others are achieved in the game.

E.g.: The trait 'mechwarrior' could mean, that the person is trained and able to steer a battlemech. People without would be penalized by treating their skills 1 level lower than it is. You will gain this trait after completing 5 missions in a battlemech. This means, you can hire absolute rookies and mold them into whatever role they might have.

'Energy weapon profiency' could be acquired after hitting something with a laser weapon for the 200th time (we just need some extra hidden information kept by the game - and frankly: it does already counting beans for those useless steam achievments) and adds +5% accuracy when firing weapons of the energy weapons category.

This leaves open further space for discussion but you see, where I am going.

Now to the skills:
The system going from 1-10 is good but the skills do not feel right in my book.

I need a bit more of them and be able to acquire special perks which come with some prerequisites. Drop the specializations. Let us talk about them.

Gunnery is the aptitude of operating a mechs weapon systems. The better you are, the more likely you will hit something. Adding a per-level boost to the accuracy is fine. Add some recoil reduction at certain levels. Keep as it is.

Piloting is the aptitude in steering a mech. The better you are, the better your melee chances will be and at some point, your stability would be better as well.

Tactics...I do not like it that way. Make it enhance the sensor range stepwise and reduce indirect fire penalties and call it 'sensor operations', which will enhance sensor range and reduce indirect fire penalties.

Guts...drop it as well. Face it: Your mech will not receive less damage just because you are a swell guy with a bandana on your hat or whatever the thought behind this is. Guts is resolve in the face of battle so kind of having a high morale and the ability to act quickly and trust your instincts. Extra HP? No. That would be conditioning. And even this would not help you survive the damage of a mech-class weapon.
Let us call this 'resolve' and add to the points you get to spend on special abilities. The more resolve you have, the more points you have for special abilities. Add in the chance to survive combat by ejecting after getting lethally wounded (there should be a basis chance of survival for each pilot and this skill could improve this)

Leadership. Let is add this and consider this one of the aspects of tactics. Leadership is important for the lance commander. You should be able to assign one of your mechs as HQ-mech and the leadership skill will - by comparison with the enemy's value, determine, who goes first each turn or have a basic chance of bumping a mech in initiative phases for 1 turn. Like each round there is a check and for each point of leadership, there is a 1% chance that you may select a mech and treat it as if one phase of initiative higher this turn.

I talked about dropping the specializations and adding skills to purchase. So instead of sinking XP into the skill points only, you might acquire some decent perks for your pilots. Let us make a practical example:

Skill: Scout
Prerequisite: Resolve 3+, Piloting 4+, Sensor Operating 4+
Cost: 400 XP
A scout is able to effectively recon enemy terrain. Your sensor range is increased by 25%. Piloting a light mech, the effect of cover is doubled.

Skill: Skilled Melee Fighter
Prerequisite: Resolve 5+, Piloting 5+
Cost: 600 XP
A skilled melee fighter is a nightmare when it comes hand to hand. Your base melee accuracy is increased by 5% and you will inflict x1.25 more damage in melee.

Skill: Seasoned Leader
Prerequisite: Resolve 5+, Leadership 5+
Cost: 600 XP
A field commander that has seen lots of battle and survived. Add +3% to LD check each turn, if lance commander. Each lancemate with the mechwarrior skill gets 1 point of resolve (not the skill, but the points to pay special abilities for) each turn of combat.

Skill: Conditioning I
Prerequisite: Regular or better
Cost: 500 XP
Hours of physical training and exercises have made this soldier a hard one. Mechwarrior gets +1 HP.

You see, there are many ways to approach the problem. This method will have both generic boosts that are useful overall and special skills for different pilot sets and more meaningful game.

Open for further discussion :)
 
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JibSail

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Hi there.

Let's kick off the discussion around the rpg elements in the game.

I agree that your character's history should affect things a little more, but there isn't much it could change if you really think about it.

I do agree with you around creating individuality within your hired mercs. The game does a good enough job with the events system, but it becomes a massive challenge when you start hiring more and more mercs. How do you create a relationship with more than 10 characters?

Maybe in stead of having only random events, have some events that can be planned by the Commander. Things like team building, off days, or resorts, entering into poker tournaments, etc.

I like the idea of fleshing out the attributes system, but I would like to take the time to discuss the difference between these and the xp system.

Attributes affect the macro game while xp affects the micro game. Some overlap could be interesting, like going on Lazer training to get the +5 acc, but in general attributes should be given in the overworld via events.

I also agree with you that attributes could do more than just drive events. It's such a rich mechanic and it can add to, enhance and even drive a lot within the game.
 

DocDesastro

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Hi JibSail,

concerning you mentioning more than 10 mercs...well, the game is designed weak enough that you most likely will not have more than 8 + your leader. The only one lance limit is...rather suboptimal...omitting harsher words here that is. Having only one lance active with no support assets - c'mon! Even the mechcommander series did a better job than that. This limit is a very weak design decision.

And, of course you are right. Attributes are earned by events and overall performance like driving a mech 5 times in missions earns mechwarrior trait. The XP system means trading experience from surviving missions into things and abilities usable for your cockpit and tactical to the core, while the others are some kind of quirks which add to fluff sometimes, sometimes give a little bonus and what not and can have a strategic effect like getting better contracts or generating medic or tech points.

The system is able to take note of the events. If it is able to count headshots for some steam achievements it also can keep track of the times, warrior X has fired a missile launcher and do a boolean algebra style consequence (IF weapon Y fired X>200, THEN gain trait Z).

Battletech scratches only the peak of what it could do. Running a merc command is not only the missions but also the in-between mission metagame. Not talking missing mechs, vehicles or aerospace assets. No, Sir. We could have techs and medics on the roster, have clerks securing and negotiating contracts and what not. Having read all 3 BT:Mercenaries field manuals up and downwise I see loads of unused potential yet. I would like to have this potential unleashed and not take words like "we do not make the boardgame because...reasons" or "Let us do that in Battletech 2 or 3!". Flesh it out already. There is plenty of source to be abused. New players will grow into it and the BT veterans will love it.
 

mjbroekman

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Just keep in mind that this is not an RPG... it's a tactical combat game. So while there are RPG elements (and I welcome them), that's not strictly the goal of the game. If the RPG elements add to the tactical depth of the combat game, great.

Also, the game is designed to allow you to manage 24 mechwarriors and have 18 mechs ready to drop, so any RPG elements should account for that. Personally, I end up with a full stable of pilots by the end-game regardless of whether I'm running a campaign or a career. Why? Because I like the pilot tag variety and, specifically, I like hiring Kickstarter and Ronin pilots.
 

DocDesastro

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I am totally aware of it. Roleplay elements like traits and development of characters can enhance the game greatly though. I have 7 warriors and do not have fun rotating them around. I always want myself to pilot something but then I have only 3 lancemates ever in a mission. So I am not enticed to have more than that and frankly, they all feel the same to me. Yeah, different pic, some different smack-talk (getting boring over time) and traits with no real meaning besides some dialogue options. This is poor. This could have been made better. The tactical gameplay is good, though and the game excels there. Still not the original stuff, still loads of mechs and other stuff missing (Yay, age of microtransactions!) but o.k. and very enjoyable within its limits.
 

D-Day

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Yes, +1 for more RPG on the Argo rather than in my head with my units' backstory. Like a lot of old-timers, I want all of the things! But realistically, HBS will continue with the tactical game because that's the biggest bucks for their time I bet.
 

JibSail

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Just keep in mind that this is not an RPG... it's a tactical combat game. So while there are RPG elements (and I welcome them), that's not strictly the goal of the game. If the RPG elements add to the tactical depth of the combat game, great./QUOTE]

This is a very good point.

@DocDesastro I think that if HBS had the capacity, they would love to add as much as they could into BT. There is no denying their passion and love for this game.

That being said, the RPG elements in the game do feel like they had more planned for them, so I get where you are coming from.

I believe the Lance size is a consequence of playability more than anything else. Having a map clogged up with units is something to avoid and allowing too many units to drop reduces the individual value of your units. Not just that, but how do you balance that many units on the field?

With regards to your comment on TT vs BT(pc), it's important to understand that TT is limited in that it is designed to be a board game. Having BT on the pc removes some of these limits. You shouldn't look at BT in the same way as TT. You should also consider that TT has been growing for years. BT is, in comparison still a baby.

This is exciting and I am stoked to see what they add to the game in the future.
 

boehm

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I like the idea of character traits impacting their morale either positively or negatively during different missions types or against particular opponents.
 

DocDesastro

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@JibSail: I agree in most points you stated but one: The game - at least the single player mode does not NEED to be balanced in terms of "too many units". This is intrinsically unlogical. Warfare is not 'balanced' in any way. If both forces are equal in strength, it is a stalemate and no one would attack because this would bring him into a worse position as being the defender with same guys and weapons has an advantage. And even if it is a game abstracting warfare, it simply should not present 'fair' conditions for everyone as this is part of a conflict's challenge. There are too many games out there balancing each faction out to death that the result is bland and boring. But philosophically spoken, this is, because we are encouraged to play games made for us to win. We learn how to win (easily even?) and even cheat to win but not how to lose in dignity or make a last stand and enjoy it because although we lost we know we have given our best and appreciate this. Or appreciate our opponent's skill or reflecting on our own faults made.

So basically spoken:

Solaris 1 vs 1 is balanced? Maybe to a point. true, if both field the same mech, pilot skillset etc. it is a pure game of RNG and tactical decisions.
Actual contracts? No. You attack targets that are vulnerable and this means operating from a position of relative strength. Strength in numbers, tactical advantages, surprise etc.
The biggest problem is: we simulate company level tactical wargaming but also try to be nice and fair and iron out rules and make it balanced like it is chess or pachesi. This might be interesting for multiplayer mode (which is NOT important to me at all - my personal view), but MP is like arena fights to me and has nothing to do with operating a merc company in a campaign.
And it isn't chess nor is even chess fair as white goes first always so even if both players will do the same, black will be checkmated half a turn before white but with checkmate the game ends with white the victor. So there is no absolute fairness in a game.

I expect the following instead:
Employer gives me a target and intel on the OpFor. I decide to take the contract or decline it.
Then I muster my troops and assign forces having to take into account dropship fees/capabilities and now the important point:
If there are Elements of the 34th Marik militia in the area then this is a fixed number of mechs and assets hard-coded into the mission I might undertake or decline. The scenario has this fixed. I might know the approximate strength and plan for it accordingly. Sometimes this will be a milk run with my dudes able to smack away opposition effordlessly like bringing 4 Atlas to a half-skull mission and blast away everything and some times it is more I can chew like my scout lance running into a medium lance with reinforcements on their way. It must not match my lance because of balancing reasons. And vice versa. My decisions as force commander and my responsibility as well. I have to think about is it worth risking my assets? Fielding 8 mechs costs more than fielding 4. Contract compensation might not meet these expenses. This is metagaming. This is feeling like a mech commander. Shoving around 4 mechs all the time no matter what mission is arcadish and result in missions becoming similar to play.
I have a job to do and if I have a Leopard dropship filled with 8 battle-ready mechs, 8 pilots and the dropship fully capable of bringing these forces in hot, then why the heck should I limit myself to only 4 mechs??? I am not a clanner nor encourage stupid things like bringing too few forces to the battle in a strategy/tactical game.

I am totally against forcing 'balancing' upon me. My limits are the forces at my hand, their cost, the rule-set and maybe dropship capability. The rest has to lie in the player's hands. Multiplayer can do point-bases 1 on 1 matches with 'balance' as they seem fit. But I cannot stand having this attitude infect single player gaming. It is neither immersive nor logical nor enjoyable over a long term.
 
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mjbroekman

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@DocDesastro as great as it would be to field more than 4 mechs, HBS decided to limit it to 4 mechs in order to ensure that missions completed within a certain timeframe. In this case, they were shooting for most contracts to complete within 40 - 45 minutes.

They found that the game slowed significantly when the player had to control more than 4 units, not from a CPU perspective, but from a player perspective. Having more than 4 units made the player think more about positioning, etc and it took more time for each player turn to complete, to the point that a mission would easily take 60 minutes or more.

You can sort of get the feeling for that by comparing how long the computer takes to move a single lance vs who long you take to move a single lance and then looking at how long the computer takes to move multiple lances. You would easily end up with single rounds that last 10 minutes when you end up balancing the increased player forces against the needed increase in computer units to meet the difficult levels of the fight.

I understand the desire for more than 4 units, but personally, I would hate for a single mission to take an hour. It's just not fun when the combat takes that long.
 

DocDesastro

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@mjbroekman: Well...your kind of style. For me, the opposite is no fun. I hate the unit limits imposed on me.

Let us simply agree we do not agree on this one. I am totally o.k. with a mission taking more than 45 minutes. I am totally o.k. with handling 5, 6 or 8 units simultaneously. Again: this is turn-based tactics and not a RTS. You can take your time. Save in-between and resume when there is time. To understand this: I played chess for 3 decades. Each serious game lasted for 2-4 hours and was thrilling on its own no matter how long it lasted. For me, fun does not need to be short-lived or match into a time-window someone decided for me. Fun is its own reward no matter whether 5 or 120 minutes. So looking for the optimum time a game lasts is moot for me. I understand your points made, even the points of the developers on their design choice and accept them both as given, but still - as it is my right to do so - I stand by my opinion to not liking it this way. Not my cup of tea. I like slow metagame with longer, more meaningful missions with more assets involved.
 

mjbroekman

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@DocDesastro no need to explain. I enjoy the unit limits for what they are and I understand that other people don't. I was merely mentioning the reasoning that was explained to us way back pre-release and not trying to change your stance. :)
 

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I get the desire for more units, but I think HBS has hit a good balance with a single lance.

The unit limit isn't just about player turn times, it is also about enemy turn times. How fun would it be if you are waiting for 12 enemies to move?
Additional units also end up breaking the current evasion mechanic. Right now we can generally manage battles so that we are only fighting a single lance at a time and we can always make some use of evasion. Double the number of units and that evasion will get stripped away faster. I expect we would regularly be losing mechs and pilots, not from tactical mistakes, but just from sheer volume of fire involved.

I get wanting more units and being okay with longer mission times. I have heard several people say the same things on here. I'm just not sure that it would work as the game is currently designed.
 

JibSail

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@DocDesastro I respect someone who can tell me what they enjoy and why they enjoy it. Few people take the time to figure out why.

That aside, I'd like to apologize for being too broad when I mentioned balancing. I meant how the game plays and how more units impact existing mechanics, as apposed to tweaking stats and numbers.

I'm a firm believer that no game is fair. It just needs to seem fair. (when viewed from an experienced perspective)
 

DocDesastro

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I get the desire for more units, but I think HBS has hit a good balance with a single lance.

The unit limit isn't just about player turn times, it is also about enemy turn times. How fun would it be if you are waiting for 12 enemies to move?
Additional units also end up breaking the current evasion mechanic. Right now we can generally manage battles so that we are only fighting a single lance at a time and we can always make some use of evasion. Double the number of units and that evasion will get stripped away faster. I expect we would regularly be losing mechs and pilots, not from tactical mistakes, but just from sheer volume of fire involved.

I get wanting more units and being okay with longer mission times. I have heard several people say the same things on here. I'm just not sure that it would work as the game is currently designed.

Well...I do not see any flaw there. I asked basically for more units in single-player mode. The KI will be able to cope with waiting for me and shoving around more mechs - it already does.
And losing mechs in a full-scale battle? Yes, this is something, you should always take into account. Your soldiers can and will die just because of your decisions to bring them there, bad luck or tons of enemies singling one of them out. You do not really expect to come out of a clash between two companies unscathed? On the other hand: what about losses like in flashpoint missions, where the odds are more likely to be stacked against the player? If you are able to bring more troops, why shouldn't you be able to? It is rather frustrating losing mechs because your limit of 4 stumbled upon a group of 8 or 10 and not being able to send in reinforcements although you have a second lance hot and waiting. THESE are unnecessary losses. If I choose to partake in an all-out battle with companies on both sides, I must be prepared to lose some and think about whether it is worth taking the contract. Also, recovering after a disaster is a challenge of its own.
Basically, in campaign mode you just do this. The company got wrecked and only a lance is left. Build up again but artificially stick to that one lance? Wrong in so many ways.

Again, what this change will do to MP is of no concern to me. If I want to fight lance vs. lance, then I do. Leave MP unchanged but give more freedom in terms of unit formation and size in campaign/career mode. I would like to have at least a Command lance of 1-2 extra mechs which can buff the others a bit. Or a mission design where you assing more than one lance but the RNG will determine, which one will encounter the enemy so plan and mix carefully. This is still lance vs. lance but more meaningful than always bringing your best stuff.
 
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Well...I do not see any flaw there. I asked basically for more units in single-player mode. The KI will be able to cope with waiting for me and shoving around more mechs - it already does.
I wasn't referring to the computer waiting on the player. I was referring to the player waiting on the computer. How long does it take for the AI to move a unit currently? With all of the animations for movement and weapons fire, maybe 10 to 15 seconds? In the current version, that means the player is waiting for a total of maybe a minute per turn? That is time spent either planning your own moves or just waiting. Now double that time. The player will be sitting there without providing input for two minutes or more. You might be completely fine with that. I know that there are several people that would be.

Idle times are a potential issue for larger acceptance and success of the game. The current game has already taken some flak for long idle times in battle. It is why the devs added the ability to accelerate combat.

I am sure there are ways to work around the increasing idle times for increased units. I would bet that HBS has discussed and maybe even tried some. I don't know. I have no special insight into what they are currently developing.

Loses become an issue with difficulty, economy, and, to a degree, tone. I play with CT destruction being the permanent removal of the mech. If I lose a mech, it is gone forever, no chance of repairs. I don't expect to salvage a mech each mission. If the unit count increases and suddenly I expect to lose a mech every mission or even every second or third mission, my forces will steadily dwindle. Even with double salvage, I doubt I would be able to replace mechs as quickly as I lose them. That is a serious issue with the game economy. If I played without CT destruction it would be less serious, but substantial repair times would still be an issue. I am sure it can be worked around, but increasing the unit count would change the entire game economy.

Looking at it from another angle, there is a good in game reason for the company to stick to deploying a single lance. We don't have transport to carry more than a single lance at a time. The Leopard can quickly deploy or recover 4 mechs at a time (I assume it has been refitted to hold 6 mech bays, but still only 4 doors). On some missions we have time to bring in multiple lances. Base defense missions generally don't have us dropping into an immediately hostile situation. However, if we dropped more than one lance, we would only ever be able to get one of them out quickly if things go bad. The trip from the surface to the Argo isn't quick. I would assume that the Leopard is waiting near the mission area to recover our lance once we complete the mission or to pull us out if we run into trouble. With two lances, someone is being left behind.

Now, this could obviously be fixed by hiring/buying a second Leopard or upgrading to a larger dropship. That would be expensive, but theoretically possible, assuming there is a second dropship available.

I would like to have at least a Command lance of 1-2 extra mechs which can buff the others a bit. Or a mission design where you assing more than one lance but the RNG will determine, which one will encounter the enemy so plan and mix carefully. This is still lance vs. lance but more meaningful than always bringing your best stuff.
I really like these ideas. Deploying multiple lances to a patrol or search mission and not know which of them will encounter the target sounds interesting to me.
 

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In the "Wouldn't it be cool" category, rather than control more than one lance at a time how about calling in your own reinforcements (via some UI element) in a manner similar to what we've seen in one of the Flashpoints? Sure, the other Company was AI-driven, but hey - more guns, more distraction. You take a hit on MRB and C-Bill rewards (basically you share the contract with the NPC lance) but at least you survive...
 

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Looking at it from another angle, there is a good in game reason for the company to stick to deploying a single lance. We don't have transport to carry more than a single lance at a time. The Leopard can quickly deploy or recover 4 mechs at a time (I assume it has been refitted to hold 6 mech bays, but still only 4 doors). On some missions we have time to bring in multiple lances. Base defense missions generally don't have us dropping into an immediately hostile situation. However, if we dropped more than one lance, we would only ever be able to get one of them out quickly if things go bad. The trip from the surface to the Argo isn't quick. I would assume that the Leopard is waiting near the mission area to recover our lance once we complete the mission or to pull us out if we run into trouble. With two lances, someone is being left behind.

Now, this could obviously be fixed by hiring/buying a second Leopard or upgrading to a larger dropship. That would be expensive, but theoretically possible, assuming there is a second dropship available..

I agree. The Leopard only can hold 4 mechs and 2 aerospace fighters (not included in the game (TM) ). It is even more a wonder, that it can hold a mechbay, a sickbay, 6 operational mechs and has an unlimited stockpile of stuff available...irony off. So...the realism card must not be played here! ;)

Given the price-tag of a dropship, it is a wonder, that the company even owns one. (And a wonder that after your debts are bought off you still pay interest each month...) A Union-class would be the thing to go - either owned or leased. On the other hand, there are missions, where you can land your whole force before entering the area of engagement - so again, more mechs to deploy. Like starting out from a friendly base. But: Leasing a dropship for a mission could be the way to go there. Just check, if the mission still pays off well enough to do such a thing.

Concerning the time-thing you mentioned taking too long for a turn to unfold: Well, I do not need the full animations and the same repeating smacktalk after each shot - being able to switch that off would be nice and would make the game run faster. (Frankly, I would even have gone with a 2D-view from above with pew-pew sounds and a window showing me, what has happened - it must not always be a full-scaled movie to represent the RNG doing his magic - but so is nowadays gaming scene ;)