Suggestion: how to realistically limit aircraft spam.

  • Crusader Kings II Expansion Subscription

    Subscribe to the CK II Expansion and enjoy unlimited access to 13 major expansions and more!


  • Paradox Midsummer Sale has arrived! Up to 75% off!

    Enjoy some sun and song this Midsummer, but when the sun goes down, the fun doesn't have to stop! Paradox has a festive sale on plenty of games to keep your summer nights going!


    June 18th - June 30th
  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Shaka of Carthage

General
12 Badges
Sep 7, 2017
1.728
1.057
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
I think there is a simple solution. Make the difference between veteran pilots and green pilots much bigger. Green pilots should be like cannon fodder to a wing of veteran pilots in superior planes. That was actually real life in WW2. Encourage the production of quality over quantity for both pilots and aircraft
:)
fighter pilot training has to be restricted enough that it doesn't make sense to spam fighters.
:) Something like say, 9 months of training?
 
  • 3Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions:

Sidetrack Nick

First Lieutenant
48 Badges
Nov 8, 2012
299
93
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • BATTLETECH
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Thank you for all the replies. It sounds like the problem is recognized by all, but solutions are not agreed upon by all. My solution, to simply have percentage of manpower that can be assigned to the air force - or maybe fighter pilots - seems the simplest to me. Decisions or focuses could be used to increase that pool (probably with trade offs) could be added as an afterthought to mods or to nations with historical options. (Glider/Pilot schools/youth aircraft clubs, air shows/competitions, etc...)

It seems like many of the other ideas posed here would call for overhauls, more micromanagement, dedicated aircraft factories, training wings, etc... All would complicate the game more, adding more micromanagement, but could all also address the issue in one way or another. I still stand by my simple fix in the light of the responses, but I do want to thank everyone for throwing in their two cents! Hopefully this will help Paradox address the issue for the next patch!
 
  • 1
Reactions:

mursolini

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
2.893
2.361
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II
Just what exactly is the problem?

Countries spammed planes like crazy in WW2, same with tanks and other weapons.

Essentially all boils down to bodies, material supply and time.

Yes we can have training pilots on trainers or old aircraft,.. so what? You can fairly easily predict you production number up to infinite, thus if you know you are going to build 4-5k Luftwaffe for France, you better have those pilots ready. So you do that, anyway.

What is the mechanical problem being solved?

If you really want to limit plane spam, just increase the number of manpower needed to crew planes, by a factor of 5 to 10.
After all air forces usually required literal millions of people for various tasks, and game currently is very generous with the amount.
 

Bullfrog

General der Tso's Chicken
21 Badges
Mar 11, 2005
5.963
352
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
Just what exactly is the problem?

Countries spammed planes like crazy in WW2, same with tanks and other weapons.

Essentially all boils down to bodies, material supply and time.

Yes we can have training pilots on trainers or old aircraft,.. so what? You can fairly easily predict you production number up to infinite, thus if you know you are going to build 4-5k Luftwaffe for France, you better have those pilots ready. So you do that, anyway.

What is the mechanical problem being solved?

If you really want to limit plane spam, just increase the number of manpower needed to crew planes, by a factor of 5 to 10.
After all air forces usually required literal millions of people for various tasks, and game currently is very generous with the amount.
I think the air superiority mechanic causes lopsided AI production, or at least that is part of the issue. It tends toward overproduction of fighters because there's no need for bombers in the game to get land combat buffs.
Your manpower idea may work in multi-player but I'd be concerned it may break the AI.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Sidetrack Nick

First Lieutenant
48 Badges
Nov 8, 2012
299
93
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • BATTLETECH
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
I think the air superiority mechanic causes lopsided AI production, or at least that is part of the issue. It tends toward overproduction of fighters because there's no need for bombers in the game to get land combat buffs.
Your manpower idea may work in multi-player but I'd be concerned it may break the AI.

The AI doesn't make enough fighters, unless you play a version that forces the AI to play competitively, like Expert AI. So, I would argue that if Paradox made it so that only so many pilots could be sent up for any nation, even if the player AND AI max out on plane production, they will still have only so many pilots/so much crew available to get the planes off the ground.

The question you bring up is not whether this would break the AI, well, playing the game vanilla is so easy you'd think the AI was already broken. Want to win the air war vs. AI? Spam fighters. Sea war? Spam naval bombers. You hardly need a navy or any other type of aircraft once you have air superiority, and once you have it, you'd be a fool to let the AI take it back. It's a steam roll. If you limit the number of air crew available - and maybe simply fighter/hvy fighter pilots - you bring back the use for more other types of planes and maybe break the naval bomber meta.
 

Znail

Captain
32 Badges
Feb 5, 2019
457
624
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Island Bound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Just what exactly is the problem?

Countries spammed planes like crazy in WW2, same with tanks and other weapons.

Essentially all boils down to bodies, material supply and time.

Yes we can have training pilots on trainers or old aircraft,.. so what? You can fairly easily predict you production number up to infinite, thus if you know you are going to build 4-5k Luftwaffe for France, you better have those pilots ready. So you do that, anyway.

What is the mechanical problem being solved?

If you really want to limit plane spam, just increase the number of manpower needed to crew planes, by a factor of 5 to 10.
After all air forces usually required literal millions of people for various tasks, and game currently is very generous with the amount.
Historically planes were produced in even higher numbers then in the game, but trained pilots limited how many were used to much fewer then we see in the game. There is also no downside in using really obsolete planes in the game where they would never be used in history due to wasting a pilot.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:

mursolini

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
2.893
2.361
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II
I think the air superiority mechanic causes lopsided AI production, or at least that is part of the issue. It tends toward overproduction of fighters because there's no need for bombers in the game to get land combat buffs.
Your manpower idea may work in multi-player but I'd be concerned it may break the AI.
Well, that was close to reality, countries tended to build 2-3 times fighters:bombers.
If AI will actually start building AA, you will not get away with building mostly fighters.
The AI doesn't make enough fighters, unless you play a version that forces the AI to play competitively, like Expert AI. So, I would argue that if Paradox made it so that only so many pilots could be sent up for any nation, even if the player AND AI max out on plane production, they will still have only so many pilots/so much crew available to get the planes off the ground.

The question you bring up is not whether this would break the AI, well, playing the game vanilla is so easy you'd think the AI was already broken. Want to win the air war vs. AI? Spam fighters. Sea war? Spam naval bombers. You hardly need a navy or any other type of aircraft once you have air superiority, and once you have it, you'd be a fool to let the AI take it back. It's a steam roll. If you limit the number of air crew available - and maybe simply fighter/hvy fighter pilots - you bring back the use for more other types of planes and maybe break the naval bomber meta.
If numbers of air crews are limited, there is even less incentive to build anything other than fighters. You also put already massively disadvantaged Axis, at every more of a disadvantage. Axis has less fuel, and less production, adding population in will make it even worse.
Historically planes were produced in even higher numbers then in the game, but trained pilots limited how many were used to much fewer then we see in the game. There is also no downside in using really obsolete planes in the game where they would never be used in history due to wasting a pilot.
It wasn't the fact that planes had a low lifetime, and needed extensive personal and maintenance, just pilots?
 

kaguravitro

General
30 Badges
Mar 4, 2015
2.167
248
  • Darkest Hour
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
2 problems, the weak in reassigned pilots since one part of the problem. The lost of trained pilots was the worst but over any country air force.

The stack of planes is other problem that needs some kind of solution like a limit similar to the width in land combat. It's inane they have 3000 vs 3000 vs in a single region. Pay of the problem is the cause of the region's