Suggestion: Halve number of Diplomatic Relationships

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pfcpointer

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I suggest the baseline for diplomatic relationships be reduced from 4 to 2. With certain nations' NI's & Diplomatic Ideas EACH providing for only an extra +1.

Optional refinement: ONLY Alliances, Vassals, PU's & Royal Marriages to count towards limit. i.e. remove relationship cost of Guarantees & Access Rights.

Besides nerfing the French & Austrian powerhouses a tad (NB But NOT Milan), & Diplomatic Ideas, I see the main benefits being:

1) More chance of smaller/shorter Wars - Therefore more opportunities for expansion (but this will still limited by the aftermath of AE & OE).

2) Nerfs, but doesn't remove threat of, cascading alliances.

3) Relatively boosts power/detterent of coalitions (which already don't cost relations), as these are not so easily counterbalanced by an aggressive nations own (less numerous) allies.

4) Nerfs Diplo-vassalisation & PUs (if only a little) by costing more Diplomatic MPs to maintain over a smaller relationship limit.

5) Less chance of late game gridlock of inter-connected alliances, caused by the naturally reduced number of independent states (which is currently hardly offset over time by global exploration). - I don't object to large naturally opposing power blocks developing, but maybe it is a little too easy for some nations to find themselves effectively junior alliance partners in both blocks at the same time. OK it improves their security by contributing to detterent of both blocks, but it's really limiting everyone's late game options.

Disadvantages:

1) More difficult for small nations to protect themselves with alliances from an over-mighty neighbour (but it is still only a soft-cap which can always be circumvented at a cost in Diplo MPs - Much less restrictive on alliances than EU3, which had an AI hard-cap of 2 alliances excluding vassals & PUs).

2) OK May make some conquests TOO easy (but, as previously stated, you still have to deal with AE, OE & coalitions, & any extra vassals/PUs are going to cost you Diplo MPs).

FINALLY: Developers, PLEASE remove the additional relationship slot that AI nations reserve only for players (why not reserve it for easy difficulty, or put on a malus for alliance acceptance above AI's Relationship Limit).

Why should an experienced player get this preferential treatment by the AI regardless of difficulty level? If a player has a surplus of Diplo MPs there should still be some alliances that you simply can't get, no matter how good your relations are. Simply because the other nation is already commited to other alliances. Players are, or should become more, capable of looking out for the opportunites provided by the broken & dishonoured alliances of others, in order to change/upgrade their own alliances.

Just a suggestion! Let criticism commence... :)
 

Topsy Cret

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Not a fan of reducing the number of diplomatic relationships - however, I completely agree that the reserve slot for humans made by the AI is something that should be looked into.
 

Xara

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Relations between great powers should occupy multiple slots.

The late game problem is not OPMs having 8 relations. It's things like Spain allying with Russia.

And the penalty for going over cap should not be a simply -1 diplo per month. It needs to translate into things like bureaucratic inefficiency and revolt chance.
 

Chevaresqye

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Sweet, I would love to release every single foreign core as vassal, and I would never bother annexing them ever.

Bring feudal monarchy to the whole world :D. Maybe allow your vassal to join independent faction against you... oh wait, that is CKII.
 

justin6477

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The one issue I have is that this system sounds inflexible.

I suggested something similar a while back. Basically double the Diplomatic Relations limits across the board (the baseline and all DR bonuses). However, give different rates of diplomatic upkeep for each kind of relationship. Alliances would be weighted at three meaning you could fit two alliances in your limit (base of four x two gives us eight). Vassals and PUs would be weighted at two. Guarantees, RMs, access, etc. could have a value of one. The largest difference between my proposal and yours is that I think coalitions should have an upkeep cost. They're basically super alliances, and it's absurd that the Habsblobs can all a dozen allies in addition to a dozen coalition members. Naturally, I don't have my heart set on any of these numbers.

Weighted upkeep should allow for more flexibility than reducing the limits outright.
 

pfcpointer

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Completely removing diplomatic relation cap and increase AI diplomacy logic is the answer.

Better AI Diplomacy logic would always be welcome. Although EU4's is pretty damn good compared to all other games I've played. Removing (soft)relationship cap would result in more spamming of Royal Marriages (effectively non-agression pacts) as in EU3 in the hope of random PUs, & even more late game gridlocked power blocks.
 

pfcpointer

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Relations between great powers should occupy multiple slots.

The late game problem is not OPMs having 8 relations. It's things like Spain allying with Russia.

And the penalty for going over cap should not be a simply -1 diplo per month. It needs to translate into things like bureaucratic inefficiency and revolt chance.

Completely agree. My suggestion is much less refined, but I suspect a lot easier for developers to code.
 

pfcpointer

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The one issue I have is that this system sounds inflexible.

I suggested something similar a while back. Basically double the Diplomatic Relations limits across the board (the baseline and all DR bonuses). However, give different rates of diplomatic upkeep for each kind of relationship. Alliances would be weighted at three meaning you could fit two alliances in your limit (base of four x two gives us eight). Vassals and PUs would be weighted at two. Guarantees, RMs, access, etc. could have a value of one. The largest difference between my proposal and yours is that I think coalitions should have an upkeep cost. They're basically super alliances, and it's absurd that the Habsblobs can all a dozen allies in addition to a dozen coalition members. Naturally, I don't have my heart set on any of these numbers.

Weighted upkeep should allow for more flexibility than reducing the limits outright.

I think I saw (& maybe even contributed to) your earlier postings. Weighting relationships has great merit. Perhaps my suggestion might be a simple stop-gap solution to the late game gridlock issue, prior to a more major rework of relationships along the lines of your & Xara's ideas.
 

Chevaresqye

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I think I saw (& maybe even contributed to) your earlier postings. Weighting relationships has great merit. Perhaps my suggestion might be a simple stop-gap solution to the late game gridlock issue, prior to a more major rework of relationships along the lines of your & Xara's ideas.

Isn't gridlock is something should be develop overtime, until someone decide to break it?
 

pfcpointer

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Isn't gridlock is something should be develop overtime, until someone decide to break it?

Its the multiple intricately intertwined alliances where Country A can be allied to C, E, F & H. While Country B is allied to C, D, G & H that cause offensive gridlock with defensive allies always getting first dibs. No problem when Countries A, B, C, D, E are opposed by Countries F, G, H, I & J.

Perhaps allied to a rival/enemy should just cause a bigger relations malus, or allied to an ally cause a positive one. When offering/maintaining an alliance?

Second thoughts - Intertwined alliances should be possible. But should naturally consist of a smaller numbers of nations overall. There should be a cost to relations with a nations membership of both alliances which may eventually force a nation to break alliance with one or other power block BEFORE war is actually declared.

The additional malus & bonus I suggest would help cement some power blocks of mutual allies, but would also allow other blocks to break up naturally from tensions caused by any internal inconsistencies of their members commitments to each other, in the event of war with certain other nations.

Third Thoughts - Simpler? Why not just make it impossible to make an alliance with the rival/enemy of an existing ally? As nations' rivalries change over time, any existing alliances could then be automatically broken if a nation finds itself allied to an allies rival/enemy.

Final Thoughts - OK, so maybe I CAN forsee some unfortunate exploits possible with my supposed "simpler" suggestion above. I don't particularly like my allies other ally, so I rival the other ally, forcing their alliance to break. So how about a nation simply can't be an ally to MUTUAL rivals?
 
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