Suggestion for the fluff of psionics

[Acheron]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling in the game that spiritualists are right and materialists are wrong. From what I can tell, materialistic scientists cannot understand psionics and are baffled by it. To me, this implies that are the spiritualistic psis are more knowledgeable, that they generally understand things better and may well be right regarding Synthetic Ascension costing the souls of the participants, turning them into automatons imitating real life.

In order to make things, in my humble view, less clear cut, I would suggest the following fluff change: scientists, especially materialists, can understand the fundamental workings of psionics. However, they also discover that psionics change something fundamental about the psyche of the people. The spiritualistic adherents of psionics claim that this is due to “awakening to their full potential”. There is however another possibility, that the effects of psionics subjugate the free will to some extend, making psis possibly servants to a communal entity.

And just as the spiritualists consider synthetics to be soulless automaton imitating people, materialists would consider psis soulless puppets of a hive mind, living only a delusion of still being free-willed entities in their own right.

Just an idea, how do you feel about it?

 

[Citronvand]

From what I can tell, materialistic scientists cannot understand psionics and are baffled by it.

What do you base this on? Because materialists can research Psionics, it's just harder since you need a certain trait for the researcher. Is there some kind of fluff text for materialist psionics that say they can't understand it?

 

[Acheron]

What do you base this on? Because materialists can research Psionics, it's just harder since you need a certain trait for the researcher. Is there some kind of fluff text for materialist psionics that say they can't understand it?

Well it at least used to be that when another empire underwent psionic ascension you would get a notification with the button saying "There's got to be scientific explanation for this". or along these lines.

 

[Drinko]

They can simply disregard it as silly superstition. Imagine ghost are real and you saw one, would materialist believe you? probably not

 

[Dan_Daniel2000]

While I generally agree with your idea of meaking Things less clear About whos right, I do not think spiritualists are necessarily right About synths not having a soul. Synths cannot access the shroud and have no presence there, but that doesnt imply that organics have a soul and synths dont, thats just what the spiritualists believe.

Though we then get into the territory of defining what a soul really would be(IRL and in Stellaris lore), and that discussion never went anywhere anytime it got started in these Forums.

And just as the spiritualists consider synthetics to be soulless automaton imitating people, materialists would consider psis soulless puppets of a hive mind, living only a delusion of still being free-willed entities in their own right.

The thing is, thats exactly what a hive mind is in Stellaris, a species forming a gestalt mind in the shroud. But hive minds are pretty open about being hives, why would the hive mind formed by ascended Psis hide itself, even from its own species?

 

[Triddle]

They can simply disregard it as silly superstition. Imagine ghost are real and you saw one, would materialist believe you? probably not

They can disregard it until your immortal ruler sends her vast fleet of magic teleporting ships at them... If magic were real, scientists would be the first wizards.

 

[Dan_Daniel2000]

They can simply disregard it as silly superstition. Imagine ghost are real and you saw one, would materialist believe you? probably not

If you would then suddenly let things levitate, read thoughts or similar Things, they should at least investigate that. I think thats the main gripe People have with materialists regarding psionics, its an actual, observable phenomen, but they seemingly dont care to study it.

Edit:
Now that I think about it, that is what being neutral on Materialist-Spiritualist axis would be.

Spiritualists are sure that something Supernatural exists, so they get easier Access to psionics.

Materialists are sure that everything can be explained by science and Supernatural doesnt exist, making faster Progress in regular science fields, but rejecting psionics even with evidence because of their Dogma.

Neutral do not get any bonuses to psionics or Research, but can Research psionics as well as other Sciences, as they have no pre determined opinion About it.

 

[Acheron]

Quite so, within Stellaris, psionics obviously and undeniably do exist, but materialists seem to be portrayed as scoffing at that silly superstition as it crushes them to dust. On the other hand, we can't have materialists have it all, so I wondered what about if there was something about psionics (or at least something implied) that would be abhorrent to the materialist ethos. Not in the sense of "this doesn't fit my model of natural law so I will just ignore it" but "this violate a sentient being on such a fundamental level it must not be allowed".

Materialists could even see Synthetic Ascension not only as a neat advancement, but also as a salvation from psionics and the shroud and what they (seem to) do to a sentience.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

living only a delusion of still being free-willed entities in their own right.

Materialists already know free will is an illusion.

 

[Triddle]

If you would then suddenly let things levitate, read thoughts or similar Things, they should at least investigate that. I think thats the main gripe People have with materialists regarding psionics, its an actual, observable phenomen, but they seemingly dont care to study it.

Edit:
Now that I think about it, that is what being neutral on Materialist-Spiritualist axis would be.

Spiritualists are sure that something Supernatural exists, so they get easier Access to psionics.

Materialists are sure that everything can be explained by science and Supernatural doesnt exist, making faster Progress in regular science fields, but rejecting psionics even with evidence because of their Dogma.

Neutral do not get any bonuses to psionics or Research, but can Research psionics as well as other Sciences, as they have no pre determined opinion About it.

I agreed before the edit... Psionics in Stellaris are part of the material world, it’s an observable phenomenon. There’s no reason for materialists to reject it, infact the roles are kind of reversed here, with the spiritualists doing the science and the materialists doing the dogma.

 

[Citronvand]

but they seemingly dont care to study it.

I don't think it's because they don't care to study it, I think it is more that it is less likely that materialists develop Psionics in their population due to their materialistic culture. Once they do develop Psionics (Leader with Expertise: Psionics) they can and will study it.

Now, if they encountered an alien species that are demonstrably Psionics they should obviously study it. But I guess this is where the game balance comes in and says no.

I do not think spiritualists are necessarily right About synths not having a soul. Synths cannot access the shroud and have no presence there, but that doesnt imply that organics have a soul and synths dont, thats just what the spiritualists believe.

I agree. It's basically the old God of the gaps argument. We don't know, therefore God. Or in this case, soul. Sometimes "We don't know" is the correct answer.

EDIT: Couldn't post because apparently "N a t u r e" is considered inappropriate so I changed it for culture. What the hell.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

They can simply disregard it as silly superstition. Imagine ghost are real and you saw one, would materialist believe you? probably not

The problem with this is that psionics in Stellaris are clearly real, so if materialists are meant to be strong believers of empiricism then rejecting it out of hand really weakens the thematic strength of their ethos by making them look irrational.

I can view psychic powers as silly superstition IRL because there's no evidence they exist, but if there were espers that clearly existed and served in the armed forces of theocratic states then it would be ridiculous to reject out of hand. So it makes very little sense that materialists would view psionic powers in such a manner.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Materialists aren't "wrong", exactly. Their methodology just makes it much, much harder to study psionics and formulate a formal theory surrounding it.

 

[Pyoro]

It's one of those scifi clichés, that the hippy, "in tune with nature and themselves", believing in some Greater Good, Fate or whatever, sort of species develop some Space Magic(tm) - or arguably that those who have Space Magic turn to such philosophies - while science-industrial types have to stick with mundane physics and such.

From that perspective and that Stellaris seems to play on many of those clichés I'm kinda fine with how things are.
On the other hand, some tropes deserve to be deconstructed, and this might be one - simply for not making much sense, as others have pointed out.

 

[Gamerguy]

The problem with this is that psionics in Stellaris are clearly real, so if materialists are meant to be strong believers of empiricism then rejecting it out of hand really weakens the thematic strength of their ethos by making them look irrational.

I can view psychic powers as silly superstition IRL because there's no evidence they exist, but if there were espers that clearly existed and served in the armed forces of theocratic states then it would be ridiculous to reject out of hand. So it makes very little sense that materialists would view psionic powers in such a manner.

But as BlackUmbrellas already said, what if materialist empires are physically not capable of understanding it or through their way of life somewhat at an disadvantage?

Even for spiritualists it might take (ingame)years to get to that initial spark, be it through random genetic mutation, divine intervention or whatever to be able to open up the initial field of research. And then it might take ages to get your whole species to that point while the last step for reaching it is STILL some kind of divine act. Until that most of your species isn't capable of using and maybe even understanding it.

And only because it is causal for us doesn't mean it is the same ingame. Contacting the Shroud always includes a chance. And I doubt that +20% research speed means scientists suddenly think 20% faster and can prove it. There might be singular visions or dreams to individuals that lead to scientific breakthroughs during that time period that can't be connected.

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

If you believe that we can just ignore the psionic phenomena, than the spiritualists have successfully misrepresented materialism to you; they've sold the strawman.

Psionics exists. That's an empirical fact. The questions are why and how.

We live in a simple single-level universe obeying universal physical laws. Every phenomena can be reduced to the interactions of quarks. Everything but psionics. Spiritualists use this fact to triumphantly announce that the universe is a figment of their imagination. That's what missing a point is. Even if this explains psionics, how comes everything else in the universe seems to be ordinated and law-obeying? Why would an imaginary universe be consistent? Taking spiritualist point of view doesn't allow you to ignore the burden of explanation, now instead of explaining psionics, you just have to explain everything else.

The truth is that spiritualist never actually wanted an explanation. They believed in all this solipsic nonsense long before they actually had any evidience. And now when they have one they use it as a curriosity stopper. A reason not to investigate anymore. But that's not our way. Psionics exist, it's strange and we are to find an explanation.

Why is there an extra unnecessary entity entangled with the conciousness of biological life forms? It couldn't be designed by evolution. There can not be a selection pressure for something without any effects on species behaviour and as our AI studies has shown, conciousness can indeed function without "mysterious soul". And if it's not done by natural selection it have to be an artificial one. Someones intent.

Spiritualists claim that there is some "highter plain of existence" from where the psionics energy comes. They claim there are some powerfull entities inhabiting this plane. For a moment, lets assume it to be true and see where it goes. Some sentient beings invented a way to link with another universe through the spesific neural patterns related to conciousness, thoughts and emotions of its creatures thus creating some new phenomena which the scientists from that universe can't easily explain. But what intent could those creatures have? Why connecting the universes?

We can only guess of course, those creatures may be very alien to us and their utility functions may work differently. But it can be exactly the same reason why Fallen Empires use Dimential Fabricators: they gather resources. Or prepeare for it. What if our universe is a huge farm and our brain activity is a delicious meal or an energy source for extradimentional creatures? That would explain why spiritualists oppose uploading to synthetic bodies - they are manipulated by the creatures from the other universe not to break the link as it would leave them hungry. That would explain an old problem of how a spiritualist civilization can even do science without any understanding of the reduction and rationality - they are favoured by the extradimentional beings and granted some insights.

Obviously, these two paragraphs are just a mere philosophical speculation which we have to do due to the abscence of empirical data. And so that it wasn't useless let's make a prediction. If this hypothesis is true, then there may come a day when the extradimentional creatures will start the active phase of their harvesting. A sudden death of all the biological life or even something less subtle as an actual invading fleet from another universe - it may happen. No need to worry, though, it doesn't affect the course of our actions in any way. As before we should upload ourselves, as before we should spread the reason and logic, as before we should study every phenomena, as before we should be ready to protect ourselves from any agression. Even without any extradimentional menace, there is still so much darkness to fight and we will do it, as we have always done.

 

[krios41]

If you believe that we can just ignore the psionic phenomena, than the spiritualists have successfully misrepresented materialism to you; they've sold the strawman.

Psionics exists. That's an empirical fact. The questions are why and how.

We live in a simple single-level universe obeying universal physical laws. Every phenomena can be reduced to the interactions of quarks. Everything but psionics. Spiritualists use this fact to triumphantly announce that the universe is a figment of their imagination. That's what missing a point is. Even if this explains psionics, how comes everything else in the universe seems to be ordinated and law-obeying? Why would an imaginary universe be consistent? Taking spiritualist point of view doesn't allow you to ignore the burden of explanation, now instead of explaining psionics, you just have to explain everything else.

The truth is that spiritualist never actually wanted an explanation. They believed in all this solipsic nonsense long before they actually had any evidience. And now when they have one they use it as a curriosity stopper. A reason not to investigate anymore. But that's not our way. Psionics exist, it's strange and we are to find an explanation.

Why is there an extra unnecessary entity entangled with the conciousness of biological life forms? It couldn't be designed by evolution. There can not be a selection pressure for something without any effects on species behaviour and as our AI studies has shown, conciousness can indeed function without "mysterious soul". And if it's not done by natural selection it have to be an artificial one. Someones intent.

Spiritualists claim that there is some "highter plain of existence" from where the psionics energy comes. They claim there are some powerfull entities inhabiting this plane. For a moment, lets assume it to be true and see where it goes. Some sentient beings invented a way to link with another universe through the spesific neural patterns related to conciousness, thoughts and emotions of its creatures thus creating some new phenomena which the scientists from that universe can't easily explain. But what intent could those creatures have? Why connecting the universes?

We can only guess of course, those creatures may be very alien to us and their utility functions may work differently. But it can be exactly the same reason why Fallen Empires use Dimential Fabricators: they gather resources. Or prepeare for it. What if our universe is a huge farm and our brain activity is a delicious meal or an energy source for extradimentional creatures? That would explain why spiritualists oppose uploading to synthetic bodies - they are manipulated by the creatures from the other universe not to break the link as it would leave them hungry. That would explain an old problem of how a spiritualist civilization can even do science without any understanding of the reduction and rationality - they are favoured by the extradimentional beings and granted some insights.

Obviously, these two paragraphs are just a mere philosophical speculation which we have to do due to the abscence of empirical data. And so that it wasn't useless let's make a prediction. If this hypothesis is true, then there may come a day when the extradimentional creatures will start the active phase of their harvesting. A sudden death of all the biological life or even something less subtle as an actual invading fleet from another universe - it may happen. No need to worry, though, it doesn't affect the course of our actions in any way. As before we should upload ourselves, as before we should spread the reason and logic, as before we should study every phenomena, as before we should be ready to protect ourselves from any agression. Even without any extradimentional menace, there is still so much darkness to fight and we will do it, as we have always done.

I found the overqualified space toaster guys! Stop spouting gibberish and make me some goddamned toast!

good read. but the Unbidden harvest Syntehtic life too, don't forget that <3

 

[_Chrysippus_]

They can simply disregard it as silly superstition. Imagine ghost are real and you saw one, would materialist believe you? probably not

But that same disregard would be immediately dropped if the materialist saw the ghost too. If materialists saw the psionic power, I feel they would have to acknowledge it.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

But that same disregard would be immediately dropped if the materialist saw the ghost too. If materialists saw the experience the psionic power, I feel they would have to acknowledge it.

They do. I've had psionic materialists before.

The only real problem seems to be that just seeing proof of psionics isn't enough to make materialists go down that line of research. They need an expert scientist (or, I think the 2.2 patch notes said a psionic scientist works too).

Having any psionic pops, or seeing a psionic entity, or fighting against psionic troops etc, should be enough.

 

[Acheron]

FYI, I don't really have a problem with any actual crunch in the game, that is, how likely materialists can research psionics and such or anything else about the actual game. It is just that from the little flavor texts, I get the feeling that psis have a good idea on how bad synthetics are while materialists have no clue and pretend psionics just aren't there.