Suggestion for simulation of railway system

[unmerged(141944)]

We all know how important control of major railway lines are and we all love to have it simulated in this game. I have thought about it for a while playing the game and I would like to make a suggestion.

I would propose the construction of railway similar to that of the infrastructure (could have lv 1-10 or simply have or have not). And any provinces that is connected by rail way would have a negative supply tax that would boost the transport of supply.

That is pretty easy stuff for logistics. Now I would like to move on to tackle army movement.

The feature I love about the current HOI3 is the strategic movement option. With that you can even move you troops that is out of the front to quickly fill the gaps left between your spearheads ---- AI uses it as well.

Now, I would suggest, you could only do strategic movement if the two provinces are connected by railway occupied by friendly forces ---- meaning, if you cut the railway line at some point, the opposing army would only be able to move as fast as they march ---- creating the real chance of encircling a much large army and makes the game better simulated of the real history.

Just my two cents. Please let me know what you guys think.

 

[Chromos]

That is a good idea.

+1

Kind regards,
Chromos

 

[comsubpac]

i think railways are already part of the infrastructure..,

 

[unmerged(141944)]

It is now. I am suggesting singling out railway to add more features in the game maybe in the later expansion.

 

[comsubpac]

It is now. I am suggesting singling out railway to add more features in the game maybe in the later expansion.

but why? when you distinguish between railways and infra what exactly would infrastructure then represent? streets? would you suggest introducing another layer for canals too?

 

[unmerged(141944)]

Yes, another layer of canal. The reason as I stated are two: 1.supply transportation (which is not the main reason) 2.with railway troops can conduct strategic movement (which is very fast) and without it troops can only march with their normal speed.

Point 2 is the main reason I am suggesting this new layer ---- to better simulate the movement and realize encirclement better in the game.

 

[unmerged(252844)]

That is actually a brilliant idea.

I doubt however it can now be put in the new expansion which is almost done? Someone confirm?

 

[Cybvep]

I would prefer balanced infra values first. Infrastructure values in provinces which historically had important railways going through them should have sth like 2-3 INFRA levels above the levels of surrounding provinces. Trans-Siberian Railway is already simulated in that way. You cut it in one place and the situation of Far Eastern troops becomes tricky.

 

[unmerged(141944)]

Actually, if Infra affects the speed of strategic movement, the purpose of my suggestion is filled. Does anybody know whether strategic movement speed is dependent on infra level?

 

[unmerged(252844)]

Not sure about strategic redeployment but for standard moving around I have seen that units move slower on lower infrastructure.

 

[unmerged(141944)]

And for the separation of infrastructure and railways ---- infrastructure would be roads, which can get muddy; railways would be the main trunk of transport and won't be affected by weather ---- which is quite true in real life as well.

So now the supply would go first along the railway trunk line, and when you need to supply troops out there, you need to go through the muddy infrastructure to finally reach the troops in the field.

I think this do add layer of reality to logistics, no?

 

[comsubpac]

And for the separation of infrastructure and railways ---- infrastructure would be roads, which can get muddy; railways would be the main trunk of transport and won't be affected by weather ---- which is quite true in real life as well.

So now the supply would go first along the railway trunk line, and when you need to supply troops out there, you need to go through the muddy infrastructure to finally reach the troops in the field.

I think this do add layer of reality to logistics, no?

railways can be affected by weather!
beside that it would make the calculations of the supply lines far more difficult which is not good for the preformance and the AI does not knowhow to effectively build infra so additional layers would cripple the AI even more.
how about additional layers for power lines and bicycle paths?

 

[unmerged(141944)]

railways can be affected by weather!
beside that it would make the calculations of the supply lines far more difficult which is not good for the preformance and the AI does not knowhow to effectively build infra so additional layers would cripple the AI even more.
how about additional layers for power lines and bicycle paths?

The reason for singling out railway is to simulate the importance of strategic railway lines that armies fight for in WWII, therefore, no need for powerlines or bicycle paths

1. Railway is much much less affected by weather than other kinds of transportations ---- even in modern days at 2011 ---- snow and heavy rain will impact highway greatly, but much less impact on railways, which is actually one merit of mass transporation. I assume the same for 1941.

2. If it is hard on algorithm, then maybe it is not achievable. But I doubt it would be that hard. To simplify: add a negative supply tax on provinces with major rail lines. And for strategic movement, you can only conduct that along provinces with railway links. I wouldn't think this would require intense coding as well.

 

[Phönix]

Railways are a graet idea, but if we could also have a "can be used by" line with it, it would be even better, as it would replicate the fact that germany could not use the russian railways, somthing we can not do with the current infrastructure. So essentially germany was forced to either build new trains and reload the supplie at the border to the new trains, build new rails, or carry the supplies/units, by horses and cars only. Every way had its own drawbacks...
This major problem is not reflected, but needs to be. Infra here is eqal for all, but rails were not like that. If the german trains would have been able to travel on russian rails, things might have gone diffrent. Also Stalingrad etc. would be really important hence explaining the VP.

 

[unmerged(141944)]

Railways are a graet idea, but if we could also have a "can be used by" line with it, it would be even better, as it would replicate the fact that germany could not use the russian railways, somthing we can not do with the current infrastructure. So essentially germany was forced to either build new trains and reload the supplie at the border to the new trains, build new rails, or carry the supplies/units, by horses and cars only. Every way had its own drawbacks...
This major problem is not reflected, but needs to be. Infra here is eqal for all, but rails were not like that. If the german trains would have been able to travel on russian rails, things might have gone diffrent. Also Stalingrad etc. would be really important hence explaining the VP.

You are right with the different gauge thing I neglected in the beginning. So a simple remedy could be like this: The railway infra would only work for the country who has core over the province ---- thus the Soviets would have major incentive to defend the railway trunk lines while the line won't be of much use for the Germans.


Also a side note on how AI might work: maybe sign higher VP value for provinces that are railway hubs and 1pts for all the provinces that has the major rail-lines?

 

[Mini$mith]

You are right with the different gauge thing I neglected in the beginning. So a simple remedy could be like this: The railway infra would only work for the country who has core over the province ---- thus the Soviets would have major incentive to defend the railway trunk lines while the line won't be of much use for the Germans.


Also a side note on how AI might work: maybe sign higher VP value for provinces that are railway hubs and 1pts for all the provinces that has the major rail-lines?

But that would also be wrong. As far as I know, pretty much all European railways had the same width of tracks. A part from that, I find this idea brilliant! In earlier versions of the game, I wrote in higher infrastructural values for certain provinces in Norway to represent the Bergen - Oslo - Trondheim railway, which played a major strategic role in the Battle of Norway.

Also a side note on how AI might work: maybe sign higher VP value for provinces that are railway hubs and 1pts for all the provinces that has the major rail-lines?

That'd be alot of extra. VP's... Alot

 

[unmerged(141944)]

But that would also be wrong. As far as I know, pretty much all European railways had the same width of tracks. A part from that, I find this idea brilliant! In earlier versions of the game, I wrote in higher infrastructural values for certain provinces in Norway to represent the Bergen - Oslo - Trondheim railway, which played a major strategic role in the Battle of Norway.



That'd be alot of extra. VP's... Alot

Okay I need your help here to understand it better. If Germany and USSR has the same gauge, what would prevent the Germans from using the Soviet's railways? They can just move there cart over right?

For VPs, if the fraction works, could be 0.3VP or 0.2VP or simply X amount of VP a trial and error thing can probably optimize the pointage ---- and don't forget bigger rail hubs have higher scores.

 

[unmerged(106255)]

The idea of railroads might be worth something if the supply line would actually follow it, instead of pathing along the shortest linear distance.

Not sure about the movement aspect, either. Strategic redeployment in this game is more like a forced march rather than actual loading onto trains.

 

[Cybvep]

Not sure about the movement aspect, either. Strategic redeployment in this game is more like a forced march rather than actual loading onto trains.

Quite the opposite, really. That's why redeploying units don't need fuel, need more supplies, move so fast and get attack delay (unloading).

 

[DerKomtur]

(more) Strategic cutting sounds interesting, but it will reduce the fun if the AI is not aware of it. (Unless you can draw fun out of world conquest with a non-major.) Some bloke once said during the battle of Stalingrad "No more ships travel up the Volga, and that's most important." "Es kommt kein Schiff mehr die Wolga hoch, und das ist das Entscheidende" and I like it when the historical reasons for decisions are re-created.Whether that's just propaganda is off-topic.

Railroads would also make partisan warfare (and partisan defense) more interesting.

Different gauge is not much of an issue IMO. It can be simulated by a layer (i.e. a band of provinces along the border) with reduced railroad infrastructure.

Someone mentioned a reform of the supply system maybe "hard on algorithm", but I am convinced this is a solvable issue. I implemented an improved supply routing algorithm working with the HoI3 map and it performs well. (follow link in signature)