Suggestion for future of Planet Invasion/Ground Combat

[Drow7]

I am very unsatisfied with current state of simplicity, length and challenge of current planet invasions and ground combat from what I seen so far.
Rather than having long boring period of bombardment and then dumping your ground forces to fight one big fight to the death I propose...

Spoiler: TUG OF WAR

Spoiler: Legend

A - Air Layer where fighters and bombers fight for air supremacy
V - When all defending armies near Victory Point are defeated planet surrenders
F - Fortifications that divide ground into 4 segments and provide defensive bonuses to segment left of it
S/M/L - Tiles to build planet defenses with small, medium and large slots

So how it all works?

Invading fleets can be next to a planet but they can't bombard it, for that they have to enter ORBIT LAYER(lets make it short OL).
OL is something like invasion fleet HQ, their base of operations just like ground is HQ for defender. While in OL they are also possible target for anti-orbit weapons on ground.
Anti-orbit weapons can't destroy ships in orbit but they can reduce their health to certain percentage to weaken them.

On ground we have 3 F tiles and S/M/L tiles with total number based on planet size and development.
Just like tiles in Surface tab for buildings, these tiles are dedicated to building defenses.
F tiles are like forts and function like planet fortifications in current game state, but they only protect segment left of it and provide bonuses to defending troops in that segment.
Its up to players to decide how much they invest in each "Fort" as they have their upkeep.
S/M/L slots can have either Anti-orbit weapons to attack invasion fleet, Shield generators to protect from bombardment or Hangars for fighters to fight for Air Supremacy with slot sizes determining their strength and upkeep.

Air layer would be fought by fighters and bombers from each side similar to current game ground combat but rather that total destruction, defeated would retreat to their HQ for repairs to fight another day.
Side that occupies air layer gets Air Supremacy.
-Invaders get air support during ground battles and extra firepower to bomb fortifications
-Defenders get air support during ground battles, extra firepower to attack orbit and can attack landing ships to inflict huge casualties during landing.

Rather than being geographical representation, ground is abstract representation of invasion progress and thats why largest slots are first in line on far right as they would be primary threat and target of invasion.
From there invasion moves to left till they reach Victory Point.

Ground troops can occupy each of 4 segments and troops can move to adjacent segments.
When moving into segment they don't control troops always get attacker's penalty.
Invaders at first can only move from their HQ to far right segment with L slots for which they also get landing penalty in addition of attacking penalty.
If invaders are defeated at far right segment they can retreat to their HQ.
Segment occupied by invaders is disabled.
Troops regain morale in segments they control, including HQ in orbit for invaders.



How it all plays out?

To start invasion first invading fleet enters orbit, from here they can bombard ground and planet can attack them with anti-orbit weapons.

Invaders can either land their troops to disable L slots ASAP or wait for Air Supremacy before doing it. Even if air battle is lost weakened fighters will do less damage during landing and during ground support.

After establishing "beachhead" invaders can move left, segment by segment till they reach last one and planet surrenders.

Its up to invader to balance how much they will risk damage to ships in orbit vs risk to assault troops on ground and how fast they will advance.

Invasion forces getting stuck halfway and having to wait for reinforcements would be a possibility.

Prolonged sieges can force invaders to retreat to friendly starports for repairs or risk battle with defenders fleet in weakened state.

As for defenders, they decide how much they want to invest and what kind of defense they want to focus on. Punishing attrition for invaders or turtle up with shields and wait for reinforcements to lift up a siege.


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In conclusion there are still details to work out and some things can probably be changed.
I find this system pretty intuitive and I hope others will too.
If anyone doesn't understand something or has questions, feel free to ask.

 

[kalauer]

Seems like a nice System, also Kind of tuned in to the ship building mechanics. However, I feel not immediately able to grasp all possible implications. Maybe, it does not even has to be that detailed to do its Job better than it (presumably) does now.

For example, is the layered defense necessary? Might be aggregated to one layer with different modifiers yielding the same result.

 

[H4shX]

I like the setup, hopefully until a DLC comes perhaps this can be modded?

 

[Drow7]

Seems like a nice System, also Kind of tuned in to the ship building mechanics. However, I feel not immediately able to grasp all possible implications. Maybe, it does not even has to be that detailed to do its Job better than it (presumably) does now.

For example, is the layered defense necessary? Might be aggregated to one layer with different modifiers yielding the same result.

I wanted to capture back and forth dynamic where defeated armies have place to retreat rather that being destroyed.

 

[sangriacus]

Why not something like this but 3 S/M/L and 1 F for each planet tile (S/M/L depending on tile) and thus once you take a tile you can station troops there and conduct your operations from there "without" depending on orbital help, this would also let you make ground wars more strategical, great idea btw

 

[Drow7]

Why not something like this but 3 S/M/L and 1 F for each planet tile (S/M/L depending on tile) and thus once you take a tile you can station troops there and conduct your operations from there "without" depending on orbital help, this would also let you make ground wars more strategical, great idea btw

If planet tiles were battlefield it would require too much attention and micro from players, so better to keep it simpler and linear.

 

[lemmox]

Personally, anything that adds complexity to the planetary invasions is an automatic no-go for me. I don't want to be involved in that process, and want it as simplified and abstracted as possible.

I'm excited for space battles and galactic politics, the less there is to the planetary invasions the happier I am.

 

[Gaussia]

I think it is a good idea to have planet tiles in planet warfare (I agree with paradox starting out with something simple, but I hope they expand on it). But one would have to make sure it is automatic so players won't have to micro. Basically, the players select a landing tile, then you have an landing phase. When that is over the army, will slowly expand outwards with the speed depending on the power of the deffending/attacking armies.

A large planet would require more time due to more tiles. This could also help dragging out on planetary warfare, so that it is not a quick process but takes time.
Thoose tile which you occupy would not yield production ofr the opponent.
Troops would also be drained from the army to maintain control over the planet/controlled tiles. A planet with many loyalist-faction pops would require more troops than planets with few pops and non-loyal factions.

The trick to creation a good planetary invasion system is to make it complex were it is interesting to follow the progress, whil your required to do a minimum of micro managment.

 

[Milten]

I like the general idea behind it, but IMO amount of micro for every planet invasion should be kept at minimum. It should be something interesting enough to watch from time to time and reflective enough in terms of army composition.

 

[Jaol]

Great idea!

A few add-on suggestions:

• Tactics should be handled by the AI only. No micro. Like how ships have combat computers, Generals would have traits or orders that determines how quickly they rush the invasion.
  
• In addition to planet size and development, tile type should impact the number/type of defense tiles or give bonuses to certain segments. I.e. jungle/mountain tiles give some extra bonuses to defenders.
• Orbital Layer should be renamed Low Orbit or something to distinguish it from the existing meaning of fleets being in orbit.

 

[Drow7]

Great idea!

A few add-on suggestions:

• Tactics should be handled by the AI only. No micro. Like how ships have combat computers, Generals would have traits or orders that determines how quickly they rush the invasion.
  
• In addition to planet size and development, tile type should impact the number/type of defense tiles or give bonuses to certain segments. I.e. jungle/mountain tiles give some extra bonuses to defenders.
• Orbital Layer should be renamed Low Orbit or something to distinguish it from the existing meaning of fleets being in orbit.

I was thinking there could be option of giving full control of invasion to AI, something like "auto survey system" for players that don't want to be bothered with it.

Ground line segments represent progress of invasion rather than geography, also already proposed that attackers get penalty to represent defenders advantage.

 

[Alucardex]

Not a fan. Too complicated. Too much micro to set up defenses. Too much micro during invasions.
Wouldn't buy a DLC like that and autoresolve every groundinvasion.

 

[sangriacus]

If planet tiles were battlefield it would require too much attention and micro from players, so better to keep it simpler and linear.

It could be easily automated in order to go for the weakest tiles first, so you would have the posibility, but not the need, to fight a strategic war in every planet.
So (in my opinion) this could give more depth to small wars, and by small wars I mean wars between empires bearing just a couple of planets, while on the other hand on bigger wars this would let you get some land to land troops and not necesarily go all in, but hold position in there instead (although I beleave your model has that too if I understood correctly)

 

[Alucardex]

It could be easily automated in order to go for the weakest tiles first, so you would have the posibility, but not the need, to fight a strategic war in every planet.
So (in my opinion) this could give more depth to small wars, and by small wars I mean wars between empires bearing just a couple of planets, while on the other hand on bigger wars this would let you get some land to land troops and not necesarily go all in, but hold position in there instead (although I beleave your model has that too if I understood correctly)

Do we actually NEED more depth in small wars? Seems counterintuitive. You want the game to be more simple in the early stages and gradually get more complex not the other way around.

 

[Red_warning]

I like it. But tbh, any system that adds a bit more complexity to planetary invasion would be appreciated. I think this part of the game is going to be the most scrutinised one in the upcoming reviews.

 

[sangriacus]

Do we actually NEED more depth in small wars? Seems counterintuitive. You want the game to be more simple in the early stages and gradually get more complex not the other way around.

I think is good to give that possibilty, and I don't think early stages should be more simple, they should be easyer, and change the focus as you grow as an empire, from paying a bit of attention in your wars to looking at grand strategies for your fleets, this is my point of view anyway, you have all the right to think otherwise

 

[Drow7]

It could be easily automated in order to go for the weakest tiles first, so you would have the posibility, but not the need, to fight a strategic war in every planet.
So (in my opinion) this could give more depth to small wars, and by small wars I mean wars between empires bearing just a couple of planets, while on the other hand on bigger wars this would let you get some land to land troops and not necesarily go all in, but hold position in there instead (although I beleave your model has that too if I understood correctly)

If we look at this from EU4 perspective, progress of invasion is basically divided into invaders HQ(transport ships) -> landing(coastal province) > 3 provinces with forts in a row with last one being "capitol".

So yes you can partially go in, get stuck, and then hold position while waiting for reinforcements.

 

[sangriacus]

If we look at this from EU4 perspective, progress of invasion is basically divided into invaders HQ(transport ships) -> landing(coastal province) > 3 provinces with forts in a row with last one being "capitol".

So yes you can partially go in, get stuck, and then hold position while waiting for reinforcements.

I think it would fit better this way since it's not the same to defend a small and well guarded province or "Tile" that defending a whole planet, thinking of the defence of a planet as all troops were simetrically distributed all over the world (or in certain strategic places) and that the invading force would also distribute it's forces simetrically over the world (or this places) instead of focusing in one place doesn't seem very smart to me