Suggestion for CK3: Army camps and a new approach to military diplomacy

[raven63]

The idea is to overhaul the game military mechanics to improve it while actually requiring less computational resources for the AI to be fluent in it.

The main theme is to represent armies by "camps". The army camp then becomes the main military unit in the game. Imagine it as a provincial building, similar to how forts and trade posts are represented now. It has a leader and a bunch of of other attributes, which can be accessed from a "camp view" screen, which includes a detailed breakdown of the troops present within it, and possibly other cool additions: baggage train and supplies, siege equipment and tools, etc.

There would be no more little guys running around the map to represent troops. Demesne and retinue troops are raised directly from within the camp screen. Levies are as well, but they take time to show up in camp. Same thing with mercenaries, but now they are regional (can only hire them if the camp is in the region where the mercenaries are based). This should decrease the load on the AI, as it doesn't have to calculate and coordinate paths of many little regiments. It also gets rid of an un-fun chore for the player: putting your troops together.

(From a realistic point of view, this makes sense. When a liege went to war, he would raise his flags, summon his vassals and their levies, and wait. Not personally coordinate every little regiment).

When two hostile armies are present within the same province, battle can be initiated by either army.

Now the second part of this suggestion: military diplomacy.

Each camp has a sphere of influence which depends on its size. This sphere of influence provides the army owner with a quantity named "Leverage". Leverage is localised to provinces, regions, and realms. Two hostile armies decrease each other leverage if they are within the same province/region/realm (depending on the size).

Example: You have a massive army camp and your arrive at your enemy's land. Your enemy is out of money and cannot raise an army (i.e. build a new camp). His entire realm is within your army's sphere of influence, and there's no opposing army to counter it. Therefore you now have "leverage" in all his provinces, the highest leverage is in the province where you're currently camping.

Now you can go to the diplomacy screen, and negotiate terms for peace. Leverage means that you can demand ownership of the provinces where you have high enough leverage.

Castles and fortifications decrease enemy's leverage, and sieging these and conquering them removes this effect, thereby giving you more leverage.

The game doesn't need to calculate leverages continuously, but only when you or the AI wants to negotiate terms.

 

[Alweth]

I'd be fine with this. Maybe not implemented exactly like this. I don't know how popular such a change would be, as the little guys moving on the maps are just about the only tangible element of action in CK2, and maybe some people need that.

 

[Rawrschach]

How does it move? Do you mean you build a camp, or two, near the border of the country you are going to fight or the guy walking around is both the camp and your army?

It would make more sense to have a "Muster" button that is clickable between Feburary and May. You declare a war making you hostile to the person you have declared on (it would work like a prepared invasion, just with a countdown of a couple of months). While you are hostile you might raid and skirmish with mercs and retinues. During the two months your levies arrive in a randomly selected county in your demesne, or in the province you have built a camp in, plus some event spawned troops like hedge knights. War is declared fully and you move your army to the fight.

I don't think medieval armies were organised enough to be represented like this. There were small retinues of knights and men at arms that a liege would have, who would be trained, but the majority of armies were peasants with a spear and a shield. Bowmen and crossbowmen were often specially trained or mercenary units.

The Camp idea could work as an extra holding in your demesne that is tied to the recruitment and training of your retinue. There would be plenty of events that could be tied to this.

 

[Tbeaz161]

This sounds like a cool idea for army management and mustering but wouldn't work for actual armies I don't think. Also I like having a graphical representation of my actual army.

How could you split up forces? Have all kinds of tiny camps?

How do you represent the movement? The camp just popping all over the map?

I do really like the leverage idea. I think a combination of this with having an actual army but not having all the little bits coalescing and tedious management a la the use of the camps would be great.

 

[iquabakaner]

I think the mustering part and the idea of having a base stationing somewhere for a battle/war make sense to me, but it doesn't have to abolish having armies moving around. It's a good idea generally but it needs a little more development on it.

 

[raven63]

Lots of valid points from everyone.

1) I was thinking that camps can march in the same way armies do now. Perhaps we can add a representation for them on the map. At some point it really becomes the same thing as what we have now, except for detailed army view, mustering, and the whole leverage thing.

2) I'm not sure what to do about splitting troops. There should be a non-complicated way to do it. Ideally I would like to have smaller companies of soldiers for raiding or other small tasks.

 

[DeathBurst]

Not a lot to add right now, but the discussion is interesting. Subscribing.

 

[Rawrschach]

1) I was thinking that camps can march in the same way armies do now. Perhaps we can add a representation for them on the map. At some point it really becomes the same thing as what we have now, except for detailed army view, mustering, and the whole leverage thing.

They represent the army that contains your ruler with a knight on horse back. Maybe a 3D horsecart, with your flag, would be a good representation and which ever county it stops in would have little stakes and flags sticking out of the ground, plus some little camp fires etc.

When you go to war, you move it towards the enemy border and levies are raised in counties around it.

The camp unit could move 3-4 times slower than normal armies and would represent your supply limit, military organisation would increase both of these. In summer armies must be within 4 counties of it and in winter 2, otherwise they take attrition. The camp could then be attacked and either a battle or a siege happens, with chances to capture wives and wards and take gold.

Armies would reinforce faster if in the same square as the camp, or if in hostile territory, will only reinforce here.

Would adventurers have camps? How would that work? Or attacking overseas?

 

[iquabakaner]

When you go to war, you move it towards the enemy border and levies are raised in counties around it.

The camp unit could move 3-4 times slower than normal armies and would represent your supply limit, military organisation would increase both of these. In summer armies must be within 4 counties of it and in winter 2, otherwise they take attrition. The camp could then be attacked and either a battle or a siege happens, with chances to capture wives and wards and take gold.

Armies would reinforce faster if in the same square as the camp, or if in hostile territory, will only reinforce here.

Would adventurers have camps? How would that work? Or attacking overseas?

I think you can have a "set camp" button in a county view, probably you can only set up in your own counties and move it to the enemy's (for overseas wars, i think it makes sense that you can move it onto ships), and levies can be raised there, by physical representation like having small armies all over the country or simply increase over time, that I don't know.

Though the supply should definitely work in terms of some kind of supply routes that links your camp to your territories, so that you can win by cutting off enemy supply.

And camps can support actions nearby, like pillaging, in its area of influence, but within 4 counties in summer seems a little too large, you can get across entire Egypt.