Suggestion: Ethnicities of Native Populations Stay

[SignedName]

After realizing no one actually looks at the suggestions subforum, I'm reposting my thread here.

I think it's really weird how ethnicities in colonizable provinces simply vanish once settlers arrive. I think a simple solution would be to keep a colony's ethnicity as that of the colonized province until settlers outnumber the natives- it makes a certain amount of sense, and it also gives an "incentive" to kill off the natives (as horrible as that sounds- but it's already a game mechanic, so hey). I think it would model culture better for the colonies, and it would mean there would actually be things like a Filipino Philippines.

 

[Kansai-kun]

That's a very good suggestion. I rememer seeing provinces with Filipino or Aboriginal culture and thinking: "Why do these cultures even exist in the game?".
It should probably work like this: You need 1000 settlers to complete a colony. If the province has >1000 natives, it keeps its old culture, if it has <1000 it flips to your culture. I just don know what happens, if there are 1000 natives.

 

[SignedName]

A colony with 1000 natives could possibly form a Creole culture, though I suppose it'd be no big deal if the culture flipping went one way or the other (honestly, it should probably be majority-settler population if it's only 1000 native population, since settlers are still pouring in).

 

[Redwallzyl]

though the "native population" isn't at all accurate.

 

[DominusNovus]

Or have some flexibility. For example, you could get a bonus to colony growth and reduced native aggression/ferocity for maintaining the native culture, or stick with the current rates to get your culture there (or penalties for your culture, whatever works better balance-wise). Ideally, this could be on a province by province basis, so that you could decide to focus your culture on the more important provinces.

I think this would be great for mimicking certain colonizers. For example, Spain and France had vast colonial territories under their control, but they were largely unsettled by Europeans outside of core areas.

Of course, I've also long supported the idea of creole cultures (and just colonial cultures in general).

 

[justin6477]

Actually, you're heavily incentivized to NOT kill off the "natives" because they add to manpower and base tax when the colony forms. While the benefit is usually mild for a given colony, over the sum of various colonies it will add up to a tremendous amount of manpower and base tax.

The actual problem is more like this. On one hand, there are American provinces where most of the natives should die-off from disease; in this case, the colonizer's culture being dominant makes all the sense in the world. Another scenario involves unpopulated or scarcely populated regions where colonies would, again, drastically change the cultural landscape. For the areas like the Philippines and other Pacific islands though, the local culture should definitely remain in some way.

 

[SignedName]

Actually, you're heavily incentivized to NOT kill off the "natives" because they add to manpower and base tax when the colony forms. While the benefit is usually mild for a given colony, over the sum of various colonies it will add up to a tremendous amount of manpower and base tax.

What I meant is that now killing natives would not be something you'd never consider doing, but an actual choice- do I want the extra base tax and manpower at the expense of having a possibly non-accepted culture in the province, or do I want to be a piece of work and ethnically cleanse the area for the sake of stability/tax efficiency/etc.?

 

[BigPharma]

Whether the native population stays should be based on the native population. Since the game makes it so that a new colony becomes a province once 1000 settlers have arrived, if the native population vastly outnumbers them, the culture should remain.

 

[justin6477]

What I meant is that now killing natives would not be something you'd never consider doing, but an actual choice- do I want the extra base tax and manpower at the expense of having a possibly non-accepted culture in the province, or do I want to be a bastard and ethnically cleanse the area?

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't like that. Considering how many colonizable provinces have cultures without tags, that sounds like the ultimate headache. All those patriots and nationalists without any nation to turn to.....

That being said, I find that eliminating natives can serve a purpose. You don't always have free stacks to park on a colony, especially as a minor power, so it can be the most expedient way of kicking off your colonial empire.

 

[SignedName]

Why does EUIV even define cultures in colonizable provinces if they're a moot point anyway? And why shouldn't countries like the Philippines have cores in ethnically Filipino provinces- this is an implemented feature, so I don't see how it would be so hard to do for uncolonized provinces.

 

[anomanderus]

Actually, you're heavily incentivized to NOT kill off the "natives" because they add to manpower and base tax when the colony forms. While the benefit is usually mild for a given colony, over the sum of various colonies it will add up to a tremendous amount of manpower and base tax.

The actual problem is more like this. On one hand, there are American provinces where most of the natives should die-off from disease; in this case, the colonizer's culture being dominant makes all the sense in the world. Another scenario involves unpopulated or scarcely populated regions where colonies would, again, drastically change the cultural landscape. For the areas like the Philippines and other Pacific islands though, the local culture should definitely remain in some way.

Actually if high-pop native groups kept their culture then there would be the possibility of pre-colonial nation revolts by people of that culture as patriots towards their main culture state.

Thus having a system whereby colonists didn't totally absorb natives into the colonizer's culture would give you the choice of eliminating the natives and only having to deal with the possibility of a colonial revolution eventually or keeping the natives around and keeping the extra manpower and tax but also keeping the possibility of a native revolution to regain their freedom.

 

[justin6477]

Actually if high-pop native groups kept their culture then there would be the possibility of pre-colonial nation revolts by people of that culture as patriots towards their main culture state.

Thus having a system whereby colonists didn't totally absorb natives into the colonizer's culture would give you the choice of eliminating the natives and only having to deal with the possibility of a colonial revolution eventually or keeping the natives around and keeping the extra manpower and tax but also keeping the possibility of a native revolution to regain their freedom.

What tag would the Polynesians revolt to? The Papuans? There is a single Papuan tag that owns all of one province, but that's hardly grounds for nationalistic revolts considering their geographic extent. What about the Madagascan Malayans? Or the Madagasque of Madagascar (seriously, this is a weird oversight)?

While I like the idea of making colony-based colonialism a bit more complicated, it would require a lot of tags and a lot of new cultures to have the potential results make any sense. And, frankly, at that point you may as well just put more nations on the map.

 

[Iamdead7]

I like the idea for native populations of >1000 to retain culture because it's honestly really stupid to put on the culture map and see lots of Portuguese culture provinces all over Africa when in this time period whites made up only the tiniest amounts of African populations and even then only in specific trading ports.

 

[Redwallzyl]

is it possible to revert a province to uncolonized? that could work for native revolts.

 

[SignedName]

is it possible to revert a province to uncolonized? that could work for native revolts.

Could also help in case you want to simulate nuclear weapons...

 

[redlion]

I think it's really weird how ethnicities in colonizable provinces simply vanish once settlers arrive. I think a simple solution would be to keep a colony's ethnicity as that of the colonized province until settlers outnumber the natives-

Very good idea. This leads to below.

That's a very good suggestion.
It should probably work like this: You need 1000 settlers to complete a colony. If the province has >1000 natives, it keeps its old culture, if it has <1000 it flips to your culture. I just don know what happens, if there are 1000 natives.

I think this is the beginnings of a calculation, however...

Or have some flexibility. For example, you could get a bonus to colony growth and reduced native aggression/ferocity for maintaining the native culture, or stick with the current rates to get your culture there (or penalties for your culture, whatever works better balance-wise). Ideally, this could be on a province by province basis, so that you could decide to focus your culture on the more important provinces.

The idea that ferocity and aggression play into which culture becomes dominant could also merit thought.

If colony pop > 1000 and ferocity < 5 and aggressiveness < 3
Then colony_culture = primary_culture
Else colony_culture = province_culture

Or

If colony_pop > native_pop and ferocity < 8 and aggressiveness <8 //provided that crushing rebels increases either ferocity or agression//
Then colony_culture = primary_culture
Else colony_culture = province_culture

I can't remember the specifics... when you attack the natives, does it raise or lower either aggression or ferocity? Because that could really play into this mechanic. Either way, if you crush the natives to lower their population (and thus make your culture dominant upon completing the colony) it should raise aggressiveness or ferocity and make culture integration harder. Aggression and ferocity should be on count down timers from the moment a nation starts colonizing, and colonial completion should require clicking a button (to give the player a chance to cheese and avoid taking native cultures if he really wishes).

When you add in colonial events like the penal colony - that should add to ferocity or aggressiveness and affect cultural integration as well. This area of the game is ripe for expansion.

The game does do a bit of a disservice to the cultural game, particularly for native cultures. They may not have organized along national lines, but native peoples did organize along cultural lines. Good thread.

 

[philipschall]

This is partially included in M&T (for east asia)

 

[SignedName]

This is partially included in M&T (for east asia)

How does this work?

 

[Redwallzyl]

How does this work?

AFAIK, there are special events which check to see if a province belongs to a certain region. If it does, it fires an even which restores the 'proper' culture in those provinces based upon the area; e.g. if the province is owned by a non-native power in the Indonesian region, assign it a proper native culture.

At least, I think that's how it works.

from the meiou thread

 

[ponasozis]

or lets just let history the work and you know
*cough*exterminate natives *cough*