[Suggestion] Disinheriting Heir

[Dakka]

So I had a thought and wanted to see what fellow forumites thought. What about a mechanic to disinherit your heir? Say you have a terrible inbred moron as your king-to-be who would surely destroy your dynasty, but your second son is the son of God himself, wouldn't a ruler be able to remove his firstborn completely from succession, regardless of inheritance law?

Needless to say picking and choosing your heir like this should have some dire consequences. Perhaps spawn an adventurer-like pretender with a strong claim and also suffer a massive prestige hit? What do you guys think?

 

[Rationalsanity]

I agree. Certain traits (Imbecile, Inbred, Lunatic, Incapable), being a heathen or a heretic, marrying without your father's permission, or getting caught doing unjust acts (especially Kinslaying) should be grounds for disinheritance. Kings wrote their sons out of their wills for less.

Obviously there should be stability consequences. Perhaps a realm law that determines if the Council gets a say or not.

 

[GCRust]

I'd be all for this mechanic. Maybe a prestige hit equivalent to the heir's prestige (heir gets hit with the same prestige penalty), as well as vassals being upset based on their relation to the heir. With obvious allowances being made if the heir is leader of a plot/faction directly against you.

Erego, you can't simply min-max your heirs if your Dull, Stubborn Indulgent Wastrel is beloved by all your vassals. Disinherit without cause and risk the realm falling to pieces.

I'd also like it if there was a chance heirs that joined Holy Orders could press claims on your territories should your character or heir be unsuitable in their eyes (Bad Piety/Traits). Maybe rather then take over directly, any territory claimed in this manner goes to the Holy Order instead.

 

[Dakka]

I'd also like it if there was a chance heirs that joined Holy Orders could press claims on your territories should your character or heir be unsuitable in their eyes (Bad Piety/Traits). Maybe rather then take over directly, any territory claimed in this manner goes to the Holy Order instead.

How Teutonic of you.

 

[housemartell]

On the subject of disinheritance and holy orders, maybe there should be an interaction to "pressure" your children or members of your court into joining a holy order or the clergy as a more legitimate way to disinherit them. If it's someone high up one the line of succession, people who liked them would be displeased, and there would be a chance of them ending up like Charles the Bald's rebellious son Carloman.

 

[brifbates]

Make them bishops (assuming Christian)
Imprison & execute (works for everyone, -relations is just a number...)
make them collect taxes with their awful stewardship # (oh darn, rabble killed my steward)
preaching to the unwashed heathens with poor learning is also good
send them to get caught spying by Greeks, castration is your friend

etc.

And there's always the change to elective option

 

[Mike Louis]

Make them bishops (assuming Christian)
Imprison & execute (works for everyone, -relations is just a number...)
make them collect taxes with their awful stewardship # (oh darn, rabble killed my steward)
preaching to the unwashed heathens with poor learning is also good
send them to get caught spying by Greeks, castration is your friend

etc.

And there's always the change to elective option

Don't forget about having him or her lead an army against an enemy doomstack despite their low martial stat.

 

[GCRust]

On the subject of disinheritance and holy orders, maybe there should be an interaction to "pressure" your children or members of your court into joining a holy order or the clergy as a more legitimate way to disinherit them. If it's someone high up one the line of succession, people who liked them would be displeased, and there would be a chance of them ending up like Charles the Bald's rebellious son Carloman.

I've always thought "Demand to take the Vows" was kind of a cop out button. For starters, prior to the Holy Orders firing, it doesn't do anything beyond be an easy disinheritance button. Rather then become Monks (for Males), they ought to go into a pool of viable Bishop candidates and not lose their Strong Claims. It means that down the line, you could end up with a situation where your Uncle, the Bishop of Verdun, has decided to press his claim for your county from your three year old regent for the glory of the Catholic Church.

Kind of play up the dichotomy of the age, where the Church really struggled with the Nobility for actual temporal power. It would also mean just Deus Vulting all over the place would be an excellent way to make a monster out of your own Clergy, who would start snapping up titles with abandon.

To add to this, religious heads need to be a lot looser with their powers of excommunication. I came in late, so I've never even seen an excommunicated player, but I'd think someone with three or more of the sin traits ought to merit a strong malus towards excommunication, which loops back towards those disinherited through the Church could then press their claims "to save the county from the eternal hellfire of your rule".

Because as it stands, I see no reason to not take traits like Greedy or Proud. Implementing a penalty system that could see my realm thrown into chaos might make those choices a bit harder.

 

[n00bypl4y3r]

Is there an example of this historically? Charles II became King of Spain in 1665, and he could barely chew on his own, let alone rule one of the foremost global powers of the time.

 

[GCRust]

Is there an example of this historically? Charles II became King of Spain in 1665, and he could barely chew on his own, let alone rule one of the foremost global powers of the time.

Yes, but again, what I'm thinking is the basis of vassal opinion here. Considering Charles' mother Mariana effectively controlled the council through her favorites, that would explain why he wasn't forcibly disinherited. Though Mariana - not Charles - was the one to suffer from this hypothetical mechanic due to the campaigning of Charles' illegitimate half-brother, who had her driven from court and replaced her as regent. Then there's the fact Charles' successor - the Duke of Anjou - kicked off the War of Spanish Succession.

 

[Rationalsanity]

Is there an example of this historically? Charles II became King of Spain in 1665, and he could barely chew on his own, let alone rule one of the foremost global powers of the time.

William the Conquer stripped England from his eldest son's inheritance because he was disrespectful.

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

I 100% agree with this. And there are some good examples in history for this. William the Conqueror, Henry II (albeit, after a revolt.. ).

Anyways, there should be very serious consequences, revolts, adventurers, pretenders supported by neighbouring countries, or other rulers who they are related to (for instance his mother's dynasty, or his father-in-law / brother(s)-in-law, etc,etc.. ).
The penalties could be a bit less severe if they are imbeciles, incapable, infirm or something like that.. also heretics and heathens, there are several examples, again most notably in England, of people being passed on, because they were of a wrong religion.

 

[Rationalsanity]

I think plenty of realms had laws preventing non Catholics from becoming king. At the very least no Bishop was going to crown you. Would prevent stupid realm wide religious shifts to.

 

[Mike Louis]

I would suggest that the devs divide the current "Controlled Inheritance" mechanic into three sections:

Out of Realm Inheritance

• Allowed - Landed titles can leave the realm via inheritance
• Forbidden - Landed titles can't leave the realm via inheritance

Theocratic Inheritance (Doesn't apply to religions that allow secular rulers to hold temples)

• Allowed - Landed titles can be inherited by a theocratic ruler
• Forbidden - Landed titles can't be inherited by a theocratic ruler

Heathen / Heretic Inheritance

• Open - Landed titles can be inherited regards of religion group / religion
• Same Religion Group - Landed titles can be inherited by same religion group heir (for the purposes of this mechanic, heresies would be treated as part of the same religion group)
• Same Religion - Landed titles can be only be inherited by a heir of the same religion

Heirs who would be disinherited under the proposed mechanics can be given a strong / weak claim depending on their position in the succession if said mechanic wasn't in effect. This will give human players some more control over their inheritance laws while reducing the cases of AI realms either flipping religion because of a heathen / heretic primary heir or becoming theocracies because the primary heir was given a temple holding.

 

[Xenrek]

I'd be all for this mechanic. Maybe a prestige hit equivalent to the heir's prestige (heir gets hit with the same prestige penalty), as well as vassals being upset based on their relation to the heir. With obvious allowances being made if the heir is leader of a plot/faction directly against you.

Erego, you can't simply min-max your heirs if your Dull, Stubborn Indulgent Wastrel is beloved by all your vassals. Disinherit without cause and risk the realm falling to pieces.

I'd also like it if there was a chance heirs that joined Holy Orders could press claims on your territories should your character or heir be unsuitable in their eyes (Bad Piety/Traits). Maybe rather then take over directly, any territory claimed in this manner goes to the Holy Order instead.

considering how often i dearly love pledging vassalhood to the Papacy for the lolz of it, i would probably enjoy being vassalized by the Teutonic Knights, Deus Vult all day every day

 

[GCRust]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who gives my religious head land for giggles.

I gave half of the Iberian to the Tuetonics and half to the Papcy but created an Independent kingdom of Aragon just to see what would happen.