Suggested adjustments to Lithuania in 1.23

[ZivDero]

Forstly, I know there is a suggestions forum. Just wanted more discussion.

So, my idea is:
The Grand Duchy of Lithuania, while begin first of all Lithuania and having Lithuanian rulers, had an absolute majority of its population spoke the Ruthenian language, which was also the language of the state.
So the suggestion is as follows:
1) Unite Byelorussian and Ruthenian into Ruthenian (no need to split them so early).
2) Make the primary culture of Lithuania Ruthenian, the primary religion - Orthodox.
3) Make the rulers of Lithuania Lithuanian Catholic.

This would not only more accurately represent the multinational and multireligious country of Lithuania of that time, but would also clearely show it was going to become one of the new centers of Rus (if not for Poland), so if it doesn't get PU'd by Poland it could form Ruthenia (which is actually just Rus).

 

[YuriiH]

Unite Byelorussian and Ruthenian into Ruthenian (no need to split them so early).

Better unite Russian and Tatar (no need to split them so early)

 

[in heaven]

1. Main language doesn't mean main culture.. Culture is not only language.
2. Main religion was definitely not orthodox but catholic. Just because orthodox was majority, doesn't mean it was main faith. I can't see any reason to change their religion.
3. It was Lithuanian nation, and rulers were not ruthenian, so there is no reason for them to form Ruthenia. It's much more reasonable for ruthenians to break free from Lithuania and form it as how it is right now in eu4..

 

[ZivDero]

Better unite Russian and Tatar (no need to split them so early)

Bad sarcasm.. The split between Ukrainians and Belorussian happened much later..
Also, if you don't know what Slavs are and how they evolved.. Don't touch it with idiotic jokes please.

1. Main language doesn't mean main culture.. Culture is not only language.
2. Main religion was definitely not orthodox but catholic. Just because orthodox was majority, doesn't mean it was main faith. I can't see any reason to change their religion.
3. It was Lithuanian nation, and rulers were not ruthenian, so there is no reason for them to form Ruthenia. It's much more reasonable for ruthenians to break free from Lithuania and form it as how it is right now in eu4..

1) No. But I'm fairly sure it better represents that Lithuania wasn't just a Baltic duchy, it was more like Muscovy, going in the direction of unifying Rus (despite being of Baltic origin).

2) Sure, this aspect is debatable. i just thought that choosing the majority religion over the ruler's religion would be more appropriate.

3) It was not a purely Lithuanian nation, it was a multicultural nation. Both Lithuanians and Ruthenians had absolutely equal rights everywhere.
So there would be absolutely no reason for the Ruthenians to break free, rather for the Lithuanians to claim the title of Grand Kniaz.

Wikipedia: "The Statutes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania have the complete name of the state as the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia" Given that Ruthenia is 80% or the land mass or so... Aswell as the ethnical composition of the country and the state language, and the ambitions of the country... Well... Rus it is.

Also, this:
"At one point in the history of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, the higher strata of Lithuanian society from ethnic Lithuania spoke Lithuanian"

Basically, it makes sense to have the country be Ruthenian to have it follow the path it would have followe were it not influenced by Poland, and to have the King Lithuanian to represent the Lithuanian-indentifying nobility.
I'm going to apply the same reasoning someone applied in the Mughals thread:
Mughals are Indian culture because the majority there indentified themselves as Indian, while the nobility was speaking the Persian language. Doesn't it seem quite similar?

 

[ponasozis]

lithuanian rulers used both ruthenian and latin languages at message commiunication simply cause they did not had a lithuanian written form language at the time
lithuania is kinda special in religious regard as it was most tolerant place for religions at the time in europe pagans,catholics,orthodoxs,jews,muslims all lived under a single banner without any attacks on each other the fact is religion for lithuanian rulers at the time was secondary concern compared to allot of other rulers of the time while on paper GDL dukes would say they are catholic in secret they would continue to practice paganism this tradition of secret pagan worshiping kept on going in lithuania many years after it was converted to catholisism officially
ruthenian while majority in GDL were simply accepted citizens in GDL as GDL was a state driven by conquest and diplomatic marriages to expand the main core population remained lithuanians and lithuanian language was required to be spoken by army leaders


You have to remember that this is medieval europe lithuanian dukes were definitely not on the path of unifying rus people nor even muscovites were at first
both GDL and muscovy expanded cause they needed power to resist other invaders like different orders in GDL case and scandinavians with novgorod in muscovy case along with constant tatar raids

after mongol empire collapsed there was left a huge power vacum that left hundreeds of different small duchies weak and disorganized in eastern europe
lithuania was one of few places in eastern europe that was left untouched by mongol invasions yet it was facing threats in form of orders which forced lithuanian dukes to unify and start expanding into weak and disorganised ruthenian duchies most welcomed lithuanian rule as it was far better then mongol and ensured some sort of organised defense in case of an attack
especially when lithuanian dukes brought religious freedom,and equal rights to all its citizens
it was a bargain hard to refuse at the time during these situations

 

[ZivDero]

I can see a Lithuanian here
I agree with the tolerance aspect... While Lithuania has +something tolearnce of heretics, it's not good enough to represent the situation IMO.
About the writing thing.. it could be as the earliest example of written Lithuanian comes from 1503, however I think there could be other reasons for that aswell. It would be kind of weird to adopt some other language of administration just cause you can't wrote your own one, and even then Latin seems like a more neutral alternative.

 

[ponasozis]

I can see a Lithuanian here
I agree with the tolerance aspect... While Lithuania has +something tolearnce of heretics, it's not good enough to represent the situation IMO.
About the writing thing.. it could be as the earliest example of written Lithuanian comes from 1503, however I think there could be other reasons for that aswell. It would be kind of weird to adopt some other language of administration just cause you can't wrote your own one, and even then Latin seems like a more neutral alternative.

i mean its not that weird
latin was only used for communicating with the orders and other european states
ruthenian language was common in eastern europe and especially in GDL conquered and integrated territories although it was mostly peaceful integration only a few dukes were very aggressively expanding GDL territory so using ruthenian language in long range communications made sense with own vassals
especially considering that learning ruthenian for a lithuanian is far easier then learning a completely foreign language like latin thats also hard to use in day to day business



lithuania is not the only state in eu 4 that is not represented as well as it should be but its the best we got atm until new systems can be made



There was a legitimate reason for lithuania to form some form of orthodox empire before becoming catholic grand duke jogaila and his relatives were discussing of an alternative of becoming orthodox rather then catholic but it was scrapped because they din t think it would stop the orders attacks on lithuania

which ironically din t stop even after becoming catholic

it is an interesting notion of how would the world look like if lithuania converted to orthodox and the orthodox church kiril would have sent an emperor or king crown to lithuania
but unfortunately this notion is too late to explore in 1444 start date



the last nail in a coffin for orthodox based lithuanian empire was broken by tatars actually
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Vorskla_River
after failed crusade against them Vytautas had no other choice but to ally with his brother jogaila king of poland and to abandon any remaining ruthenian lands in mongol hands
if vasily I din t betray the alliance he made with Vytautas and came to help against tartars in that crusade and vytautas actually won that battle history would be allot different as vytautas would have gotten himself his own state free of jogaila influence

 

[in heaven]

If Ruthenian would become ruler of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, I would see a reason for him to form Ruthenia, but otherwise there is no reason.

Kazimieras Jogailaitis was catholic, and other nations saw Lithuania as catholic nation. There is simply no reason to make orthodox as main religion of Lithuania, unless again, ruthenian starts to rule GDL.

i mean its not that weird
latin was only used for communicating with the orders and other european states
ruthenian language was common in eastern europe and especially in GDL conquered and integrated territories although it was mostly peaceful integration only a few dukes were very aggressively expanding GDL territory so using ruthenian language in long range communications made sense with own vassals
especially considering that learning ruthenian for a lithuanian is far easier then learning a completely foreign language like latin thats also hard to use in day to day business



lithuania is not the only state in eu 4 that is not represented as well as it should be but its the best we got atm until new systems can be made

And Lithuanian rulers already knew how to speak and write in ruthenian language.

 

[solidprice]

Would be a cool as a decision.

 

[ZivDero]

If Ruthenian would become ruler of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, I would see a reason for him to form Ruthenia, but otherwise there is no reason.

Kazimieras Jogailaitis was catholic, and other nations saw Lithuania as catholic nation. There is simply no reason to make orthodox as main religion of Lithuania, unless again, ruthenian starts to rule GDL.

And Lithuanian rulers already knew how to speak and write in ruthenian language.

What I was saying is that Lithuania was not juist a Liithuanian state, it was a Russo-Lithuanian state and it wouldn't be unreasonable for it to claim the title of Rus.

Would be a cool as a decision.

Mby just allow Lit to form Rus.

 

[in heaven]

What I was saying is that Lithuania was not juist a Liithuanian state, it was a Russo-Lithuanian state and it wouldn't be unreasonable for it to claim the title of Rus.



Mby just allow Lit to form Rus.

Claiming title of Rus is not the same as becoming Rus. Muscovy claimed to be third rome, it was still called Muscovy though.

Again, with new mechanic where rulers have nationality, the only time decision might make sense is if ruler would become ruthenian. If you really want to form Ruthenia as GDL, just create a mod.

Edit:
You can actually form Ruthenia, if you culture shift to ruthenian:

 

[ZivDero]

Claiming title of Rus is not the same as becoming Rus. Muscovy claimed to be third rome, it was still called Muscovy though.

Again, with new mechanic where rulers have nationality, the only time decision might make sense is if ruler would become ruthenian. If you really want to form Ruthenia as GDL, just create a mod.

Edit:
You can actually form Ruthenia, if you culture shift to ruthenian:

And by claiming the title I meant become Rus of course. Muscovy did kinda claim to be successors of Rome... sorta.. but not really. They derived their claim from the marriage of the tsar and the daughter (or sisteter? not sure) of the last Byzantine empreror.

And it wasn't actually ever called Muscovy. Thanks the Poles for that name. The Grand Duchy of Moscow was just one of the many other duchies of Rus, and the people just called themselves the people of the Rus, later - Russians. And the formation of the Tsardom of Russia was nothing else than clainig to be Rus.

 

[al.gb]

Better to add flavor events for Lithuania. It much more interesting than this culture-religious shenanigans.

 

[TheWalttu]

Lithuania was a feudal state,

No official culture other than the culture of the Grand Duke existed. The Ruthenisation of the Lithuanian Grand Duchy is often over emphasized because of the widespred use of Old Ruthenian as administrative language.

In Lithuania, noblehood was granted via military service, or other form of servitude to the state. A key role of a noble was to provide soldiers for the duke, but the nobles also held the state offices and the power in Lithuanian was divided and fougth of between the regional lords and the Grand duke.
According to the military census of 1528, the Lithuania proper provided 5730 horsemen for the crown, whereas the Ruthenian parts provided 5372 horsemen, which should give a better view on the balance of power within Lithuania. Most of the ruling class were still catholic Lithuanians, and many of the orthodox ruthenian speaking nobles had their roots within Lithuania proper.

Ruthenians might have been the majority, but we are not talking about the times when power was disturbed equally.