Succession

[Notthemama]

For a game based on the familial-dynastic politics of the Middle Ages, I still feel succession is underwhelming, especially the hard wired part of it-it's either totally one thing or another. This is probably something that wouldn't even be possible until the next game, but the ability to bestow property, to grant things to various sons and yet keep the lands intact as a family, sort of like a ck2+ mechanic of giving abstract manors to appease other sons. Also I really wish the mechanic for changing a succession law was almost anything else besides a 10 year period: it is a strange mechanic, not even partly historical or representing in the abstract a real thing. its almost like it was an afterthought.

 

[Rags17]

Agree ! I always thought that law changes should have zero cooldown but a 5-10 year diminishing opinion malus. That way a super loved god could completely overturn the current system while a hated tyrant would have near zero chance of getting anything done (legally).

 

[MrParadux]

It would be amazing, if gavelkind got reworked and made more intricate. Roughly something like:
Your character controls an amount of titles and each eligible child expects to gain an equal portion (first born might have expectations to get more). You then organize your inheritance in advance and assign how your titles are to be distributed upon death. Depending on how you match your childrens expectations, their opinion and ambition towards you and your other, maybe preferred children changes (Also: claims). If you didn't handle inheritance before your death, commence regular old gavelkind.

 

[knppel]

The part with have to be in power for 10 years before changing succession law is an anachronism from CK2 1.0, basically.
It was designed to balance out that gavelkind was actually inferior to Primogeniture, Elective and Seniority (which were all succession laws originally existent in the game).
The idea was to slow down player progress, in a time where that meant to become Holy Roman or Eastern Roman Emperor, and change the respective succession law to primogeniture.

It got obligate when the first succession laws were introduced that do not go in hand with the original game balance, but nonetheless never was removed.

 

[jwalche]

It would be amazing, if gavelkind got reworked and made more intricate. Roughly something like:
Your character controls an amount of titles and each eligible child expects to gain an equal portion (first born might have expectations to get more). You then organize your inheritance in advance and assign how your titles are to be distributed upon death. Depending on how you match your childrens expectations, their opinion and ambition towards you and your other, maybe preferred children changes (Also: claims). If you didn't handle inheritance before your death, commence regular old gavelkind.

Except they didn't have that power in history. You could express your wishes, to be considered as a variable by the succession committee to be formed only after your death.

In CK2, though, you can still organize your inheritance in advance. Make a non-intended heir and give everything to your true heir, and change the heir back right before your suicide.

Or do it while having a feast with your trusted friend at a inn after a long day of march. You know its too late for you life anyway. You can imprison and execute so many vassals literally on your death feast table drinking poisoned wine, especially those electors. Give all to your true heir then make him your main heir.

Done perfectly, your true heir can have everything and his brothers left with one county and a kingdom title each.

 

[knppel]

"Expel the jews, do NOT repay my looaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrhhhh"
"What did he just say?"
"I think he said we should expel the jews from the castle of Loaaaarh."
"Well alright, let's get to it. We're executors of his last will, after all."
"Where is it again?"
"No idea, I'll look at the map."
"Say, uh, didn't he owe some money to the jews too? You might wanna go pay the old Schmuel backbefore we throw them all out, The Caliph was an honourable man after all."
"Yeah, I'll go do that first, Agha. A real shame they poisoned him. Any word yet who it was...?"
The Agha looks around conspiratively, then lowers his voice to the guardsman while physicians usher in the room and people start to scream.
"A cousin of a cousin of mine heard...."

*curtain*

 

[jwalche]

I forgot name of that committee. But there was a scene about it on Netflix's show The Last Kingdom, which was based on early middle age Wessex at the time of 7 English Kingdoms falling to Danish vikings and vikings start to be civilized although only a little. (Corresponds to 769 start?)

When King Alfred's brother, the former king was in death bed from a battle wound, he and all his councilors chose Alfred instead of his drunkard son. After the king died, power to choose the next king seemed to be clearly at the hand of that committee. When the former king's son claimed his right to the committee and lied that it was his his father will, a councilor replied that the next king will be selected by that committee and they will put the prince's claim on consideration. It seemed pretty clear that they would have chosen Alfred even if it was against the dying king's will, had lawful authority to do so, and clearly there was no fixed succession law like primogeniture.

By end of the show, now frail Alfred was in his deathbed after a few decades long and highly popular reign, it seemed clear that his son was already decided to be his heir either by a clearly set law or high crown power. The former king's son, a cousin of the new heir, wasn't even a real consideration if consideration against the king's wish was even a thing, which didn't look like.

The show also described Pagan's swearing fealty to a person, the king, and not the crown or the heir. The idea of game's tributaries breaking upon the ruler's death makes a lot of sense with that too. Wouldn't make any sense to serve anyone just because his father. Gavelkind in early age was more like Dothraki's, and the realm would be divided by its powerful commanders rather than underage children.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

^ I'm also a fan of The Last Kingdom on Netflix, and I believe the succession council was called the "Witan". A gathering of elders and nobles where they determined the next king. Here is a Wikipedia entry on it, so you know it must be true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witenagemot

 

[jwalche]

^ Side tracking. I thought that Alfred King of Wessex was really such puny almost tribal king with a tiny army. Later I learned that he indeed had rich and powerful vassals, growing in numbers as the show progress, but using their army, except for a few very close to him, was something that can really rarely happen unless you have a marriage tie or something. I have seen realm wide levy only once when the capital was occupied, and even that was voluntary and made the King emotional.

Ability to imprison your vassal's vassals and courtiers without worrying for revolts is not even remotely imaginable until very late middle age. Doesn't make sense without being able to control their garrison directly.