Successful encirclements, anyone?

[Daniel0x00]

Hi,

I am fairly new to the game, but I am trying hard to execute a successful encirclement of a fairly large amount of enemy forces.

My hope is that in this case they will have to fight with a "flipped front", will eventually die out from the lack of supplies, will not have a chance to retreat/regroup/replenish and therefore I will beat them spending amazingly less resources than in other circumstances.

The problem is I never actually managed to implement an encirclement. Does anyone has screenshots/video of a successful Kessel?

Do you have internal and external fronts of the encirclement?
Which forces do you use to protect every province on the way of the circle?

 

[marxianTJ]

Typically I just leave 3 units in a tile and any additional units are passed further along to either enlarge the encirclement or continue pushing the enemy back - after all if they push deeper into you, who cares? That's the point of maneuver warfare, if they break out backwards into your own lines they just become more encircled.

I use infantry to maintain the encirclement - tanks and heavier formations are for pushing the enemy not sitting in place in case something bad happens.

 

[Daniel0x00]

Ok, now comes the hard part: motorised infantry + tanks are "drawing" a half-circle, crushing enemy on their way at a huge speed. But infantry on their foot can't catch up with the spearhead to enter a newly conquered province and get on the defensive. Or you use *mechanised* infantry to stay in a tile and seal up the envelope?

 

[Laurwin]

Hi,

I am fairly new to the game, but I am trying hard to execute a successful encirclement of a fairly large amount of enemy forces.

My hope is that in this case they will have to fight with a "flipped front", will eventually die out from the lack of supplies, will not have a chance to retreat/regroup/replenish and therefore I will beat them spending amazingly less resources than in other circumstances.

The problem is I never actually managed to implement an encirclement. Does anyone has screenshots/video of a successful Kessel?

Do you have internal and external fronts of the encirclement?
Which forces do you use to protect every province on the way of the circle?

1. usually best way to start is to have two pincer forces and try for a double envelopment

2. you want to have 1-2 breakthrough provinces at each point of entry for each pincer force. Use bombers to interdict or ground attack the breakthrough provinces. It is important to attack weakly held provinces and win the combat fast.

3.Then you move into breakthrough provinces with fresh tank divisions/ mot/ mech

4. At this stage you can choose to "funnel the enemy" with your own attacks, and you must also move with the tank divisions to close the encirclement.

5. "Funneling the enemy" tactic means that you control the enemy's retreat paths by attacking certain provinces, from certain provinces, such that the enemy has no choice but to retreat back into the "almost-encircled-area", instaed of falling back into the enemy's own safe rear areas. Typically this means that you want to enter with your mobile divisions about 2-3 provinces inwards from the breakthrough provinces, and only then you start to funnel the enemy deeper into encircled area, instead of just pushing the enemy back into safe enemy areas. If the enemy about to be encircled is too powerful to defeat with a couple tank divisions, then I suspect you would try to focus more on simply encircling.
Funneling the enemy tactic only works realiably against the AI though because human player can choose manually his retreat paths when losing combats. But it can also work in multiplayer against human because the human would have to manually micromanage all combats, which may or may not be easily done.

6. you can also use small attacks with one or two divisions against the "would-be-encircled-enemy" to try to bind them in combats, and prevent movement. Those combat-bound enemy troops can still retreat however, but they cannot strategic deploy in that case.

7. some may think it is a little bit gamey tactic, but you can logistical strike the provinces behind the enemy troops you're trying to encircle. This slows down the enemy, and prevents them from easily strategically deploying out of the frontlines to the rear.

 

[marxianTJ]

When you work with tanks, the important thing is to not use more tanks than in necessary to win the battle for the tile - don't be lazy and just sick all your tanks on a single tile - that way the tanks which are cooling down from the attack will be the ones to enter the tile first - your tanks which didn't participate can be set to move to the tile after the victory, that way they'll be fresh enough to attack the tile behind the one you just took. You may also need to engage your infantry in spoiler attacks in the tiles adjacent to the ones you're assaulting to prevent the AI from attacking your units as they arrive in tile and depleting them (halting your advance). Once you win the battle the whole line should start shuffling to the location of the breakthrough - that way everything is in motion and your infantry will at least have a chance to keep pace with your advancing tanks (because your tanks which initially fought in the battle will be experiencing an attack delay).

Once your infantry manage to catch up, they can be used to attack tiles adjacent to the one you just took as well should your tanks become depleted - that way you may be able to bypass areas with poor terrain, or especially large concentrations of enemy troops.

The other thing to remember is that no encirclement will be perfect - the AI isn't a genius, but it's also not *that* bad. Once it detects that you're trying to envelop them, they'll start retreating as quickly as possible and may even abandon the tiles nearest to you. That's fine. You're gaining ground even if the offensive fails - and your opponent is losing land, IC, and resources.

If MP isn't a concern, it would also be a good idea to use mixed Tank and INF forces, that way when you lose INF divisions to attack delay it doesn't hurt your speed or firepower as much lol.

 

[Daniel0x00]

Thanks you all! Will try that now

 

[Kovax]

I generally attempt to push the encirclement at least 2 provinces BEHIND the enemy line. Once the AI realizes that it's being trapped, it begins an escape through the remaining gap, and if that's only a province behind them, they're each going to hold the door open for the next division as you attack each of them in turn, and they retreat OUT of the trap. The pocket needs to be deep enough to buy sufficient time to close the door before the long line of routers reaches it.

MOT is good for following up the tanks on the advance, with regular foot infantry holding and hopefully widening the shoulders of the encirclement, then moving up to relieve the MOT. Once closed, the AI will almost inevitably attack the circle from both inside and out, so you need enough units on the ring to prevent a breakout against attacks from multiple directions, and to make occasional attacks of your own. Regular Infantry is great for that, if you can get them there, otherwise MOT is usually good enough for holding the line. One tactic is to make "spoiler" attacks from unengaged provinces, forcing individual enemy units to break off their assaults on your weakest points due to "multiple combat" penalties, and then wait out their attack delays. Meanwhile, your troops on the inner side of the pocket are wearing down the trapped units, either cutting the pocket up in to bite-sized chunks or else pushing all of the enemy units into a single province with crippling stacking penalties and no resupply.

I've caught 20+ divisions in a pocket on many occasions, and in one case cut off nearly a third of the French army in the Metz area by both breaching the Maginot Line to the south it, and also going around it to the north through Belgium, isolating it and then simply letting it sit there out of supply while I took Paris. In that game, it made perfect sense to puppet France, because that added the trapped yet almost completely intact French army to the Axis. In many cases in the Soviet Union, I took an existing pocket, and as I reduced it and freed up troops, used those troops to create a fresh pocket alongside the first, with the first pocket serving as a jump-off point for the one pincer. After about 3 such "extensions" on the original pocket, with 10-25 divisions trapped each time, there wasn't much of a Soviet front line left.

 

[Big Nev]

I generally attempt to push the encirclement at least 2 provinces BEHIND the enemy line. Once the AI realizes that it's being trapped, it begins an escape through the remaining gap, and if that's only a province behind them, they're each going to hold the door open for the next division as you attack each of them in turn, and they retreat OUT of the trap. The pocket needs to be deep enough to buy sufficient time to close the door before the long line of routers reaches it.

MOT is good for following up the tanks on the advance, with regular foot infantry holding and hopefully widening the shoulders of the encirclement, then moving up to relieve the MOT...

This is how I do it too. But I think my division structure is a little different to those used by most.

There are four echelons

The Break-Through. One bgd of your heaviest armour plus 2 or 3 strong but mobile Inf types + at least one support bgd. In this role, I often team HArm with Mtn and Mot-AA or Eng if there's an obstacle.
The Follow-Through. These want to be faster than your breakthrough divisions, but still pack a decent punch as they are likely to be fighting the enemy reserves in the "second" province. Typically [Arm+2/3Mot+SPArt] These will usually get the most aerial support as it's the second row back that needs to be taken as quickly as possible.
The Relief-&-Hold. These are your foot sloggers that follow on behind securing the provinces captured by the first two types. They don't have to be special.
The Leapfrog. This is the fastest unit you can make. It only has ONE purpose, to beat the other guy to The WIre. I typically use [LArm+AC] or, when available, [LArm+Mech]. As the name suggests, these small units will pass through your Break-Through & Follow-Through units to get to that all important (usually unoccupied) third province. They don't need to be particularly tough as (usually) they'll only be called upon to fight units that have already been broken.

Timing is very important. The Break-Through start first, often supported by some of your foot sloggers (from multiple directions for better effect) so they start moving early enough to reach their required positions. Give them orders to attack the second province back. (use Shift key)
Once the battle is in full-swing, you can order the Follow-Trough & Leapfrog divisions to attack the second & third provinces back respectively. This gets them moving early but it's important to ensure your frontage is full, you don't want these units to enter the first combat.

If all goes according to plan (and sometimes it does) when the first enemy units break, the Follow-Through & Leapfrog divisions will have already completed their movement in to the first province (without having entered combat, so no delay) and will immediately enter combat with anything in the second province. This is, as previously mentioned, where your air power needs to be concentrated. Breaking the second province is what it's all about. If you break these units quickly enough, your leapfrog division will get to the third province before any of your broken enemy. This usually results in an over-run of the units in both first AND second provinces, which removes them from the game.

Now your foot-sloggers can move up un hindered to occupy the direction of your pincers and you can close the gap.

This technique works for me because I expend significant research on LArm Engines & reliability and let LArm armour & gun fall by the wayside in order to get their speed up as high as possible. Think Chaffee.

There are a few other research topics that improve overall speed, so I research them as well. A 16kph LArm unit may be crap in a stand-up fight (OK, it WILL be crap) but in manoeuvre warfare, they really work.

Incidentally, I've also found that HArm (even all armour) can take forever to regain Org while the Mtn (who usually have a lot more Special Forces researched and much higher Org) are ready to go again quite quickly. Is it gamey to have reserve HArm bgds to swap-in and let the "exhausted" HArm rest for a while?

 

[Kovax]

I rarely use armor for the original break-through, and hold it back until the front line province is broken by Infantry divisions (possibly with a single armor division in support) attacking from multiple directions. That's when the stronger armored units surge ahead, breaking that critical second province as quickly as possible, followed up by Light Armor to exploit the gap. The LA over-runs the routing units by beating them to the third province, followed up in turn by MOT, and then the INF advances (once it burns off its attack delay from the original break-through) to relieve the mobile elements and consolidate what I've taken. Meanwhile, the Armor-tipped pincer usually pushes a 4th province deep and then turns in toward the second pincer, while my MOT and INF strengthen and hopefully widen the encircling ring, so at least some of my units can't be attacked simultaneously from both within the pocket and without.

The AI is pretty decent at recognizing small encirclements of 2-3 provinces, but less quick to react to 10-20 provinces surrounded at once. Splitting an entire country in half can also work wonders (the city of Split in Yugoslavia is appropriately named for that), leaving half of the army stranded out of supply. Of course, you need a pretty substantial buildup in advance on the shoulders of the attack to take and hold that much ground, but it beats trying to whittle down something the sized of the Soviet Army one or two divisions at a time.

 

[Big Nev]

Can't make my mind up to click "Helpful" or "Agree"

I want to click both.

But... your infantry can advance in to captured provinces without waiting to burn off their attack delay, it's just movement.

And yes, the new AI for TFH was better at spotting encirclements.

 

[Kovax]

The infantry involved in making the original breakthrough will be stuck with Attack Delays, and can only move by retreating (or SR?), which leaves their supplies behind, meaning that they're stealing supplies from your advancing armor and motorized units at the front of the pincer. After that delay burns off, they can follow up the armor and motorized units, support them against breakout attempts, and eventually participate in reducing the pocket. Meanwhile, the armor and motorized units start in on either creating a second pocket beside the first (you already have one side of it, or breaking and overrunning the scattered and battered units running around like decapitated fowl behind enemy lines.

 

[Big Nev]

But they can still initiate movement while they burn off their attack delay.

So they can follow up immediately. They can't attack, but they can fight if attacked and, therefore, move to a captured province, even vacated by your armour, and hold it.

 

[Nick U]

But they can still initiate movement while they burn off their attack delay.

So they can follow up immediately. They can't attack, but they can fight if attacked and, therefore, move to a captured province, even vacated by your armour, and hold it.

This is not true, units with an attack delay will only complete the movement into the province they sucessfully attacked, but they cannot initiate new movement while under an attack delay. So they can't advance into one province and then continue advancing whether the territory is defended or not.

I will often keep a fast mobile units out of the initial battle specifically to jump into a province that a slow enemy is retreating from, intending to rush through into the next province and conduct an overrun (this destroys the enemy unit if you beat them into the location they are attempting to reteat to - they will attempt to cancel the retreat, but if the initial province has already changed hands, they are removed from the game). However, the AI often counters this by spawning a HQ from the retreating unit. It causes a fresh battle to be fought and flags my overrun unit with an attack delay, forcing them to stop in the first province for a period and effectively preventing the overrun.

 

[Kovax]

But they can still initiate movement while they burn off their attack delay.

So they can follow up immediately. They can't attack, but they can fight if attacked and, therefore, move to a captured province, even vacated by your armour, and hold it.

Half correct. You can assign the movement order while they're still on Attack Delay, but they won't actually begin moving until that delay is burned off. The exception is if you RETREAT them into another friendly province, so in theory you could have them "retreat forward" almost immediately into the provinces just taken, but that seems like a less than optimal solution, especially since they abandon their supplies when they retreat and will need to recover from that deficit after they arrive by stealing supplies intended for the other units that are advancing.

 

[Big Nev]

What?!

Is that specific to Vanilla, SF, FTM or TFH?

I was sure units could move in to "friendly" territory while under attack delay.

I'll have to double check that tonight.


And a retreat forward wouldn't be a good idea, no. Apart from the supply issues you point out, I can imagine all sorts of horrible scenarios where they manage to get themselves over run by accident because they can't fight.

 

[Kovax]

Units out of supply can move into friendly territory, but not enter an enemy province. Perhaps that's what you're remembering.

I'm not sure if you can SR a unit that's suffering Attack Delay, or not. Either way, you're going to have to sit out the Delay on one end or the other, but at least you could move up and defend a province that way, if that's a viable option (I haven't tried it). You can also "retreat forward", and aside from the loss of supplies and limited options, you could fight (with a "no supply" penalty) upon arrival as long as the province isn't retaken by the enemy before you get there. After midnight, you'd get a share of the supplies intended for the other units, so you could defend normally. Not optimal, but it should work.....in theory....except when it doesn't.

 

[Big Nev]

Nope, I saw movement arrows so assumed the units were moving. On closer inspection, I see that you're 100% correct. Although the movement arrow appears, the unit won't actually start to move until the attack delay has counted down.

Something else I need to check now is that if I've ordered them to move through the first, second, however many province(s) to attack a province deep within occupied territory, I think (thought ) they'll keep moving, regardless of attack delay incurred in the first province because they haven't started their attack, even though they may have entered combat along the way.

It would be a bit iffy if this was the case though.

 

[Nick U]

...Something else I need to check now is that if I've ordered them to move through the first, second, however many province(s) to attack a province deep within occupied territory, I think (thought ) they'll keep moving, regardless of attack delay incurred in the first province because they haven't started their attack, even though they may have entered combat along the way.

It would be a bit iffy if this was the case though.

There are two halves to a battle, the defender and the attacker. The defender is always the current owner (or ally) of the province where the battle takes place. Only the attacker picks up an attack delay, but only when a battle actually takes place. All you effectively do is order movement, whether or not an attack delay occurs during that movement is determined by whether the unit entered battle, classed as the attacker.

Now if unit X is currently moving and comes under attack in his current province, X is the defender in that battle and suffers no attack delay at the conclusion of the battle (assuming he doesn't retreat), but is pinned in the defending province for the duration of the attack. This pinning could be indefinite, especially in more difficult terrain where battles tend to last longer.

However, if an enemy units beats X into an intermediate province that X is in the process of moving into, X's movement becomes an attack into that particular province and X picks up an attack delay, thus any further movement is delayed.

If there are no defending units, X will happly move through several enemy provinces, capturing them all without picking up any attack delay.

This is why the spawning of HQ units by a retreating unit is so annoying. HQ units cannot fight, nevermind one freshly spawned with only 50 men and no org. Nonetheless they cause a very brief battle to be fought which resets the attack delay for units that already have one and generates an attack delay to ones that don't already have one. This foils overuns by your fast moving units that you purposely kept out of the initial battle and are attempting to leap frog your attack delayed units. It's debateable whether a HQ spawned from a retreating unit, should also inherit the retreating flag and follow the unit it was spawned from to the next hex, but it could be argued it is effectively leaving behind a rearguard.

 

[Kovax]

What I really hate is when a new enemy HQ spawns after the battle, your units stop to fight it, and then it "retreats" forward into an empty province behind your lines that you already control, essentially capturing it, while your units sit there and burn off a few hours of Attack Delay. A long game of "tag" ensues, where you chase the HQ around behind your lines until you manage to get a unit ahead of it or pin it in a province with only one way out. A HQ shouldn't be able to stand and fight, but a HQ that auto-retreats should lose some manpower, so it can't keep retreating infinitely and will eventually be destroyed by repeated engagements. Perhaps having such units actually fight for the first hour before breaking off automatically might induce enough casualties. A better option would have been to leave HQs off the map, and represent them off-board.

Oddly, I've seen fresh enemy HQs spawn in provinces that I controlled, sometimes one or two provinces from where I destroyed an enemy HQ a few hours earlier. I hate it when the AI clearly doesn't play by the same rules as the player.

 

[Henryii2]

Hold the line with INF, use MOT (or possibly LARM) and ARM to encircle.