Subs Getting Sunk Too Easy Again - Thought there was a fix?

[Syntalynder]

Can anyone official confirm that a fix for Submarine Detection was in the new patch? According to Podcat it was (see quote below) but it's not listed in the 1.5 patchlog.:

From The Naval Update Dev Diary:

We have also been tweaking the detection logic of submarines and how fleets engage. Fleets usually had a really easy time to find submarines due to some strange code thats now been keelhauled (a destroyer could more easily find a submarine that could find itself very easily...it was very philosophical), so we hope that part of naval warfare is going to feel better.

 

[Syntalynder]

@podcat Apologies for the bump but is there any official confirmation on this? Thank you.

 

[podcat]

We fixed a couple of cases and tweaked down visibility, but more testing has shown it to not have a massive impact unfortunatly Its something thats going to need basic redesign of detection. Not going to promise that we can solve it before 1.6, but we are going to give it a shot and it might work out

 

[Ksyr]

On the other hand subs are really good at sinking convoys if you can find an unguarded sea zone.

 

[Uniform764]

Everything is really good at sinking convoys now. Since the patch I've seen multiple battles in the Med with 80+ convoy kills.

 

[Lumpy]

On the other hand subs are really good at sinking convoys if you can find an unguarded sea zone.

In this case, you might aswell use surface raiders. They are faster than subs, too. The only reason to use subs is to stay undetected, which doesn't work since launch. Therefore, subs are currently a redundant unit without their own niche. Let's hope they figure it out before the naval rework, looking forward to fighting a real Atlantic campaign one day!

 

[Karaya 1]

not to mention that subs sometimes need days or weeks just closing on the damned convoys. Which is infuriating to watch.

 

[Daddl]

Its a bit better than before though. The basic problem is stockpiling into one fight and battles taking way too long, and that can't be fixed without burning the naval system down and doing it from scratch again (which unfortunately is whats need to be done at some point).

But I feel like subs have become a bit more viable, they are not found instantly anymore and deal decent damage for their cost. Still not great, but ok.

 

[Lumpy]

Its a bit better than before though. The basic problem is stockpiling into one fight and battles taking way too long, and that can't be fixed without burning the naval system down and doing it from scratch again (which unfortunately is whats need to be done at some point).

But I feel like subs have become a bit more viable, they are not found instantly anymore and deal decent damage for their cost. Still not great, but ok.

The thing is, it is just not feasible to invest any resources in submarine warfare. Lengthy doctrine and sub research? Allocating valuable dockyards to building subs? Why bother? Your resources are better spent on basically anything than subs. They might be a tiny tad bit better now, but they are still a resource sink you can simply not afford to invest into.

 

[Syntalynder]

We fixed a couple of cases and tweaked down visibility, but more testing has shown it to not have a massive impact unfortunatly Its something thats going to need basic redesign of detection. Not going to promise that we can solve it before 1.6, but we are going to give it a shot and it might work out

Thank you for the reply. I understand. The rest of the game for 1.5 & DLC is excellent and thank you and all the team for the work you all put into this.

 

[Anthropoid]

So basically, no point in trying to do, much less "win" Battle of the Atlantic as Germany 1936?

Disappointing to say the least. Pdox and naval warfare modeling never seem to work out well together. Have none of you guys ever played War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition? Just play it and model your design on that. Translating turn-based combat into real-time might not be so easy, but it might at least serve as a starting point.

 

[mabus81]

Waiting for a naval revamp, anyway

 

[Fast00000000000]

Maybe they will redo the a naval overhaul like they did with air in the next dlc, which might be involving sea powers

 

[Anthropoid]

In all fairness, navies are complicated, and Sweden (being a landlocked country and all) it makes sense they'd find it challenging . . .

 

[Sourlol]

Maybe they will redo the a naval overhaul like they did with air in the next dlc, which might be involving sea powers

They better do a hell of a lot more for the naval game than what they did for air.

All they did with air was make the UI better.

Naval game needs a fundamental redesign of the mechanics. No amount of UI improvements will fix what is, at its core, a shit system.

 

[Anthropoid]

They better do a hell of a lot more for the naval game than what they did for air.

All they did with air was make the UI better.

Naval game needs a fundamental redesign of the mechanics. No amount of UI improvements will fix what is, at its core, a shit system.

You cannot really use a game model that works reasonably well for land troops at the grand scale (Divisions, etc.) and just staple "Navies" tags onto the the UI and expect it to behave like anything other than excrement. I've been lamenting Pdox unwillingness/inability to acknowledge this and tackle it for decades.

I mean . . . the game IS written in C++ isn't it? Just send me an NDA ,$1 and your fricking source code and I'll fix your game for you. Guarantee to provide you with a better naval model within 12 months.

Me and my IDE await your contract

 

[Marcus]

And so Anthropoid was the first of many volunteers in the Freiwilligen Paradox Coding Division.

 

[Secret Master]

So basically, no point in trying to do, much less "win" Battle of the Atlantic as Germany 1936?

If you think the Battle of the Atlantic was just a submarine show, then I guess so. If you think about it in terms of combined arms operations like Germany actually did, it's not so clear cut.

If you get your NAVs out there (Condors, the Scourge of the Atlantic as Churchill himself called them) to help those submarines, things change dramatically. If you do the same with surface raiders, things change dramatically.

And remember that killing 100% of convoys isn't even the indicator of success of a convoy raiding campaign. If you reduce key shipping routes to 10% efficiency for long stretches of time, you are doing well. If you bag some troop transports, that's a bonus. And if your Condors are damaging and sinking Allied warships that are trying to hunt your submarines, that's also a win.

Remember, convoy routes cannot be altered in most cases. And a lot of Allied convoys go through the Bay of Biscay (including some vital ones carrying aluminum and lend-lease). Get air superiority, put some cheap subs there, and put your NAVs there. And don't use large wolfpacks. Two subs at a time is the way to go. If the RN or USN tries to stop you, the NAVs just bomb them, too.

 

[safe-keeper]

We fixed a couple of cases and tweaked down visibility, but more testing has shown it to not have a massive impact unfortunatly Its something thats going to need basic redesign of detection. Not going to promise that we can solve it before 1.6, but we are going to give it a shot and it might work out

#sadpanda

 

[stl3l9n]

You could download Subs not so useless, although it probually doesn't work in 1.5 yet.