Subs and Wolfpacks

[unmerged(162341)]

Can someone make a comparrison between subs in HOI II Armageddon and HOI III?

I play HOI II currently becouse its more enjojable..and seems to me subs are lacking some reality and usfullnes in older title, but reading comments here seems to me now situation is even worse,or am I wrong?

 

[Pier]

Actually, subs work fine if you use a certain strategy in HOi 2.

In my last HOI2 Germany game, I more or less followed the Blue Emu strategy: some IC building, fairly early get the long-range subs, and start building a 6, 7 or 8x99 series. Also get the doctrines in time.

Aim to have about 60 subs by Danzig, and keep building. In early August move them in groups of 6 or 12 in the Atlantic and form a cordon around the UK, but far away enough.

Rush Poland, and take France and the low counties in 1939 as well, so you have bases close by. Ideally, you also take Spain to close the Med on that side, forcing the convoys to make much longer trips.

Somewhere in 1940, the UK has 0 convoys left, and Italy and Japan can do as they please as supplies dwindle.

 

[unmerged(162341)]

Actually, subs work fine if you use a certain strategy in HOi 2.

In my last HOI2 Germany game, I more or less followed the Blue Emu strategy: some IC building, fairly early get the long-range subs, and start building a 6, 7 or 8x99 series. Also get the doctrines in time.

Aim to have about 60 subs by Danzig, and keep building. In early August move them in groups of 6 or 12 in the Atlantic and form a cordon around the UK, but far away enough.

Rush Poland, and take France and the low counties in 1939 as well, so you have bases close by. Ideally, you also take Spain to close the Med on that side, forcing the convoys to make much longer trips.

Somewhere in 1940, the UK has 0 convoys left, and Italy and Japan can do as they please as supplies dwindle.

In HOI II Armageddon subs are playable,not perfect,but I agree they are working,despite game has no feature of sinking resources , resulting in antouched economy of the enemy.

Its true you sad, reading threads in HOI II forum(I am new) ..one mystical person blue-emu realy seems has made some kind of HOI II submarine sacred scripts, put altogether can be called HOI II submarine Bible,following which results in diminishing drowbacks of HOI II concept with satissfactory strategical utilisation of subs .And I am following those to.
Now.
Now HOI III soposedly has sinking of goods together with convoys and supply routes.and.and... much more improvements over HOI II jet seems people are dissapointed.
Why?

Is it maybee lack of proper command for the submarine fleet?
Or maybe mr. Blue-Emu s guidance we need again?

 

[Alex_brunius]

Can someone make a comparrison between subs in HOI II Armageddon and HOI III?

1. Sub vs DD
HoI2: the DD will always win, especially later models.
HoI3: Its an even race, both models are upgraded at roughly the same speed and cost.

2. Sub vs Capital ships
HoI2: Subs can attack and sink all capital warships, including carriers.
HoI3: Subs can attack and sink all capital warships except carriers, which they cannot close to.

3. Subs vs Convoys & Escorts
HoI2: Subs can be effective and sink Convoys, but only after the entire convoy reserve of a nation is depleted.
HoI3: Subs can make a local impact preventing for example supplies from reaching a certain destination, but they cannot make a strategic impact due to convoys & escorts being 100 times cheaper to build, and due to the ease of getting escorts to inflict damage on the subs even without doctrines & research.

Personally I think Subs are better at the first category in HoI3, Better in the second category in HoI2. And equally good (but at different things) in the 3:ed category. So Imho its a tie, none of the systems are good though being able to handle less than half of the situations in a realistic manner.

 

[unmerged(162341)]

1. Sub vs DD
HoI2: the DD will always win, especially later models.
HoI3: Its an even race, both models are upgraded at roughly the same speed and cost.

2. Sub vs Capital ships
HoI2: Subs can attack and sink all capital warships, including carriers.
HoI3: Subs can attack and sink all capital warships except carriers, which they cannot close to.

3. Subs vs Convoys & Escorts
HoI2: Subs can be effective and sink Convoys, but only after the entire convoy reserve of a nation is depleted.
HoI3: Subs can make a local impact preventing for example supplies from reaching a certain destination, but they cannot make a strategic impact due to convoys & escorts being 100 times cheaper to build, and due to the ease of getting escorts to inflict damage on the subs even without doctrines & research.

Personally I think Subs are better at the first category in HoI3, Better in the second category in HoI2. And equally good (but at different things) in the 3:ed category. So Imho its a tie, none of the systems are good though being able to handle less than half of the situations in a realistic manner.

Thanks.
So developer made subs in HOI III more realistic and thus theorethicaly more potent strategical weapon, jet "balanced" cost and apearance of convoys and escorts in order to make submarine impact less decisive... making subs questionable as a tool of strategical projection of power.

I am relatively new here and I see Paradox takes care about prevalent opinion of their customers.
Was maybee before somewhere on this forum made a pool,voting, for having sub impact artefitialy weakened ?

 

[cliffordhud]

If convoys are abstract then so should subs. Having zones that are reachable from ports controlled or ports of friendly countries should be considered. Like portugal for axis. They allowed and repaired/supplied subs for germany even though they were never actually anything but neutral.

I thought Portugal was officially neutral - but very pro-allied in practice (not surprising as they have been an official ally of England since 1380ish (nearly 600 years!)- later in the war Portugal allowed UK and US to use the Azores as Naval Bases. Additionally the Allies guaranteed to support Portugal in the event of German attack

 

[unmerged(162341)]

Is it realistical that subs cant reach and treathen carriers?

I mean from what I know,only wessels prooved to be capable to sink carrier ever was another carrier and submarine.(I dont count Sharnhorst battleship that miraculuosly hit carrier from 20 kilometers IIRC).

 

[unmerged(129995)]

Depends. A Germany that won at Stalingrad fielding properly built XXIs with properly trained crews against a Home Fleet still thinking in terms of submersibles? They could hit anything the Royal Navy could build.

 

[unmerged(162341)]

Depends. A Germany that won at Stalingrad fielding properly built XXIs with properly trained crews against a Home Fleet still thinking in terms of submersibles? They could hit anything the Royal Navy could build.

How is represented XXI level of sub techology in HOI III?

Playing Silent Hunter game it apears XXI were silent,plane-proof, and faster than older types of destroyes,under water,capable to deliver 6 torpedos without periscope and escape with impunity without resurfacing for days.( I confess I didnt play Silent Hunter on 100% reality level).
In HOI II XXI are hillariously ancapable,making any use of submarines after 1943 animaginable.
Has anyone reached XXI level of tech in HOI III?

 

[Alex_brunius]

How is represented XXI level of sub techology in HOI III?

Playing Silent Hunter game it apears XXI were silent,plane-proof, and faster than older types of destroyes,under water,capable to deliver 6 torpedos without periscope and escape with impunity without resurfacing for days.( I confess I didnt play Silent Hunter on 100% reality level).
In HOI II XXI are hillariously ancapable,making any use of submarines after 1943 animaginable.
Has anyone reached XXI level of tech in HOI III?

I think model XXI is reached when you have researched roughly the 1940 level of submarine technologies as Germany. It's really just a name among others in a list of progressions where one step is always the same as the next.

High tech subs can be very dangerous to enemy warships (except for carriers), but not cost effective at all against convoys & escorts like we said.

 

[cliffordhud]

Depends. A Germany that won at Stalingrad fielding properly built XXIs with properly trained crews against a Home Fleet still thinking in terms of submersibles? They could hit anything the Royal Navy could build.

AAArrgh!! If Germany had won at Stalingrad!! What does that mean? The scales were already tipping against the German Army - at Stalingrad the Russians outgeneraled and outfought them - even if the Germans had won at Stalingrad after another 3-6 months the Russians would have beaten them somwhere else. And how would a victory at Stalingrad help the early production of type XXI subs (with properly trained crews?)

You might just as well say "if Germany had been twice as powerful it might have stood a better chance of winning!"

Aaaargh

 

[dsteve3]

If only Britain had spent WWII building only transports, and doing no research into anything military.

(*Sigh!) Oh well, guess we'll never know.

I'm looking forward to the next week or so to see how 1.3 works out. Make sure to write lots of posts to describe all the changes.

Unless, of course, you're actually playing the game. I won't install the game again until I see that its working properly.

 

[unmerged(162341)]

I think model XXI is reached when you have researched roughly the 1940 level of submarine technologies as Germany. It's really just a name among others in a list of progressions where one step is always the same as the next.

High tech subs can be very dangerous to enemy warships (except for carriers), but not cost effective at all against convoys & escorts like we said.

I see, thanks.
Hm, wasnt XXI developed around 1944?Why is than 1940 tech?

 

[Kayapo]

Thanks.
So developer made subs in HOI III more realistic and thus theorethicaly more potent strategical weapon, jet "balanced" cost and apearance of convoys and escorts in order to make submarine impact less decisive... making subs questionable as a tool of strategical projection of power.

There are minor differences between Sub models in HOI2 vs HOI3 and how they compare to their counterparts DDs...but that isn't really the crucial point. Giving them this or that stat doesn't really change how they behave.

In other words, HOI2 and HOI3 engine's handle subs the exact same way. Except for minor changes on options for convoy missions the jist behind it is still the same.

A sub that is both a naval unit like other ships but at the same time represents a flottilla of 2-X subs goes convoy raiding on abstract convoy routes. It is this conflict between being an abstraction and at the same time a unit on the map that I find makes sub warfare very complicated on this engine.

There is no core difference, that I can see, in how these two games handle subs.

Given a choice I would have voted for all submarine activity to be abstracted just like convoys are.

 

[cliffordhud]

I see, thanks.
Hm, wasnt XXI developed around 1944?Why is than 1940 tech?

I think if you examine the different improvements in the XXI they were all "availiable" - seperately - in 1940 - however they were not brought together until the U-boat arm had been effectively beaten (crushed?)by the allied team of ASW+Air+Numbers+Training+Bletchly Park in 1942/3. This defeat was the spur that produced the XXI in 1944. Although it was not operational as a weapon system before the war ended. In my mind this exposes a flaw in the tech advancement process in HOI. Clearly as a player operating with perfect hindsight you can push down a particular development path - indeed it is part of the attraction of the game. However there should be real costs and penalties in rushing these techs before something "triggers" the need for radically improved tech. The reason that a lot of advanced tech was first seen in Germany was simply as a result of a desperate attempt to redress the production war that Allies had won in 1943 (or earlier in some classes of kit - ie UK/RAF outbuilding the Luftwaffe from 1940 onwards). Look at the Sherman - completely outclassed by the Panther on an individual basis - however 10 Shermans would beat the 1 or 2 Panthers that managed to reach the front line...

 

[unmerged(162341)]

There are minor differences between Sub models in HOI2 vs HOI3 and how they compare to their counterparts DDs...but that isn't really the crucial point. Giving them this or that stat doesn't really change how they behave.

In other words, HOI2 and HOI3 engine's handle subs the exact same way. Except for minor changes on options for convoy missions the jist behind it is still the same.

A sub that is both a naval unit like other ships but at the same time represents a flottilla of 2-X subs goes convoy raiding on abstract convoy routes. It is this conflict between being an abstraction and at the same time a unit on the map that I find makes sub warfare very complicated on this engine.

There is no core difference, that I can see, in how these two games handle subs.

Given a choice I would have voted for all submarine activity to be abstracted just like convoys are.

So it is the theory of different levels of abstraction,that says that whatever we do, never part of the game will be balanced untill all elements of this part of the game will be on the same level of abstraction.
I read this theory somewhere before I think on HOI II forum..and I think it is the low,like Moores low.
And in the case of convoy-submarine relation its seems that both in HOI II and HOI III developer neglects the LOW.So actualy current aproach cant never be put in equilibrium becouse of basic conceptual flow.

 

[unmerged(162341)]

I think if you examine the different improvements in the XXI they were all "availiable" - seperately - in 1940 - however they were not brought together until the U-boat arm had been effectively beaten (crushed?)by the allied team of ASW+Air+Numbers+Training+Bletchly Park in 1942/3. This defeat was the spur that produced the XXI in 1944. Although it was not operational as a weapon system before the war ended. In my mind this exposes a flaw in the tech advancement process in HOI. Clearly as a player operating with perfect hindsight you can push down a particular development path - indeed it is part of the attraction of the game. However there should be real costs and penalties in rushing these techs before something "triggers" the need for radically improved tech. The reason that a lot of advanced tech was first seen in Germany was simply as a result of a desperate attempt to redress the production war that Allies had won in 1943 (or earlier in some classes of kit - ie UK/RAF outbuilding the Luftwaffe from 1940 onwards). Look at the Sherman - completely outclassed by the Panther on an individual basis - however 10 Shermans would beat the 1 or 2 Panthers that managed to reach the front line...

I see, thanks.
Its logical what you sad.
I sopose such profoound system finely can result in normal XXI?
I just worry its again XXI perspective from HOI II,I hate this sub its fiew % better than model VII ,its outrageous.

EDIT.I purchased HOI III firstly.Than I purchased HOI II and strated to play it becouse HOI III 1.1. was not playable and to difficulty for me.Now, in HOI II I encountered submarine model XXI(electroboat)and its stupidity of Einsteinian proportions.
I found one factor that cooled my enthusiasm for playing otherwise great old HOI II.
I hope 1.3. will atract me finely to HOI III side.

 

[unmerged(129995)]

AAArrgh!! If Germany had won at Stalingrad!! What does that mean? The scales were already tipping against the German Army - at Stalingrad the Russians outgeneraled and outfought them - even if the Germans had won at Stalingrad after another 3-6 months the Russians would have beaten them somwhere else. And how would a victory at Stalingrad help the early production of type XXI subs (with properly trained crews?)

You might just as well say "if Germany had been twice as powerful it might have stood a better chance of winning!"

Aaaargh

Hardly. Even after losing Sixth Army the Germans could still marshal one of the largest armies in the world to fight Kursk. A German Army with an intact Sixth Army and all its equipment and veterans in 1943 is a lot different then our world's German Army circa 1943. You say 'at Stalingrad the Russians outgeneraled and outfought them'...so what if in this HoI campaign the Germans outgeneraled and outfought the Russians?

 

[cliffordhud]

Hardly. Even after losing Sixth Army the Germans could still marshal one of the largest armies in the world to fight Kursk. A German Army with an intact Sixth Army and all its equipment and veterans in 1943 is a lot different then our world's German Army circa 1943. You say 'at Stalingrad the Russians outgeneraled and outfought them'...so what if in this HoI campaign the Germans outgeneraled and outfought the Russians?

Yes - a couple of fair points in what you say. My counter would be that even if the 6th Army had "won" Stalingrad it would not have been intact - the rate of attrition on the Eastern front was awful from the start. The German army was shrinking - even when it was winning. So a German victory of some sort at Stalingard would (in my view) have just shifted the location and timing of the Russian resurgence - not stopped it happening.

But I take your point regarding the impact of better German leadership during an HOI campaign

 

[unmerged(162341)]

AAArrgh!! If Germany had won at Stalingrad!! What does that mean? The scales were already tipping against the German Army - at Stalingrad the Russians outgeneraled and outfought them - even if the Germans had won at Stalingrad after another 3-6 months the Russians would have beaten them somwhere else. And how would a victory at Stalingrad help the early production of type XXI subs (with properly trained crews?)

You might just as well say "if Germany had been twice as powerful it might have stood a better chance of winning!"

Aaaargh

I think he ment that if Germans, somehow, managed to defeat this land of 20 million of square kilometers populated by 200 million people,they could turn their resources in making and refining some weapons that in our world by the end of war ,becouse Germany was loosing war and was in chaos, dint have a chance to show its full potential.In this scenario a fleets of highly advancad submarines forcing Allies to swim all over the globe will be not animaginable.