Subs and Wolfpacks

[Federkiel]

Just doing a quick search on the net at German Uboat's of WW2 it becomes apparent that it took on average around a year to get a Uboat into service which is slightly longer than HOI3 assumes. However I suppose it is the cost 4.5 that needs to be investigated as to whether it is realistic?

Over the course of the war, the boats were produced quicker and quicker (Überland Sektionsbauweise), much of the time had to be spent on testing and especially crew training. But that is just a side note. SUB costs are not the necessarily the problem.

Basically, it doesn't matter where you start - the ratio between CONV/SUB should be changed. It may be enough to double production time of CONVs or whatever. As they are implemented now, they are abundant in raw masses (if we get AI to produce them at all ).


In HoI 2, SUBs were much cheaper and convoys much more expensive. It may not have been perfect but the ratio was much better than they are here.

 

[Niewitch]

Havent you forgot, that also if you do plenty of loses to enemy convoys, it affect pretty fast enemys national unity. Lots of subs can gripple enemys NU.
But still agree, that subs need balancing, but compared to CAS, subs much more usefull, when talking about balance. CAS are completely useless and need extreme balancing process to even consider to build them.

 

[Kikaider]

Maybe there needs to be two types of convoy ship. In the early stage of the game these take longer to produce and at a higher cost and then on a historical date or when a researched technology/doctrine is achieved the Liberty type vessels can be procured which are cheaper and quicker to produce?

Or how about letting convoys/escorts be influenced by practical and start [much?] more expensive (so that as you build lots to replace losses, they become 'liberty-ship' cheap). Something to prevent/hinder you from having a ridiculous merchant marine at the start of the war would also be helpful

 

[Federkiel]

Havent you forgot, that also if you do plenty of loses to enemy convoys, it affect pretty fast enemys national unity. Lots of subs can gripple enemys NU.

No, i haven't. Naval powers have plenty of ships to send on escort mission. You don't have to build a single ship to do that.

Doing this is the best way to boost NU (and btw. destroy the luxury toys the SUBs represent), as the countermeasure is rewarded much more than the attack, actually. No spy net will bring you up as fast as this...

I got eyes like plates when first encountering UK getting their NU from 80 to more than 90 during the zenith of my greatest SUB campaign. if nothing happens with the game, i will never build a SUB again.

 

[Alex_brunius]

You are starting to talk about naval combat. According to my tests, SUBs did not fare as good as you say. Even with the investment we both assume, many of them get lost - unless one concentrates them in a ahistorical-nonsene-gamey fleet.

Just like cruizerging - that is RTS rubbish à la C&C.

Ofcourse the subs must be concentrated into Zerg fleets, you do this with all other ships so it must be done with subs aswell to give a "fair" comparison.

Yes its ultra ahistorical to use them this way, but the only way to get a true benchmark of how effective they are in combat is to use equally large fleets (in ICdays) and have them battle. I think 30subs would do well against say 4BBs, 5 CLs, 5DDs or what equivalent fleet can be found.

 

[Federkiel]

Ofcourse the subs must be concentrated into Zerg fleets, you do this with all other ships so it must be done with subs aswell to give a "fair" comparison.

If this is a must - then the game mechanics can be considered broken.

Never ever would it be possible to stage a SUB attack with 150 SUBs (equivalent of 30 SUB units).

And of course never did it happen in ww2, the topic of the game, btw.

Yes its ultra ahistorical to use them this way, but the only way to get a true benchmark of how effective they are in combat is to use equally large fleets (in ICdays) and have them battle. I think 30subs would do well against say 4BBs, 5 CLs, 5DDs or what equivalent fleet can be found.

This is to found out yet. If i had the choice, i would go for the surface fleet which can also be used to shore bombard and is unstoppable on raiding, too...
Larger ships don't sink easily, so on repeated meetings, the surface fleet would keep more of it's firepower left.

Also, with such a fleet, you do invade your enemy and/or destroy his fleet. Strategic warfare is peanuts if you can defeat the enemy outright.

 

[unmerged(61401)]

I got eyes like plates when first encountering UK getting their NU from 80 to more than 90 during the zenith of my greatest SUB campaign. if nothing happens with the game, i will never build a SUB again.

This happens because convoy attacks doesn't affect the enemy unity AT ALL. I was always able to cripple the Merchant Marine to nonexistence in 1.1, but their NU is unaffected. This is broken...

 

[unmerged(153278)]

My suggestion

Increase about twice (maybe more) a IC cost and time.
Add "Liberty convoy vessel" which will be decrease twice IC and time convoy cost.

Decrease subs IC cost for about 25-40%

BUT there is a big problem
The "Liberty convoy vessel" technology will not work because convoy cost and escort cost are in defines.lua file.

	CONVOY_BUILD_COST 			= 2,
	CONVOY_BUILD_TIME 			= 40,
	ESCORT_BUILD_COST 			= 3,
	ESCORT_BUILD_TIME 			= 50,

So we have to wait that PI will change this.

 

[Federkiel]

This happens because convoy attacks doesn't affect the enemy unity AT ALL. I was always able to cripple the Merchant Marine to nonexistence in 1.1, but their NU is unaffected. This is broken...

Really? Then it must have been my bombing campaign that was taking place at the same time. Whatever it was, UK got stronger. That was, of course, before they completely faltered with nothing that could be called an army but some 250 TRS...

If they had built CONV instead of this, i would have certainly needed 100 years or so to harm their trade at all.

Sry, but SR warfare is nuts yet.

 

[unmerged(2609)]

I arrange mine into infantry divisions at the moment.

The thing about the HOI series in particular and this style of game in general is that they give you units that represent this or that real life thing, and sometimes they don't represent it very well.

In real life the UK was almost brought to its knees by submarines, and it's easy to think in these terms when you play the game, but in game terms the UK is a clown standing on a street corner throwing pies at people, and it always misses, except in North Africa, where the Italians are even bigger clowns, which is actually historical. You can ignore them, invade them with one fleet with some transports, or exploit them to death with paratroopers, as you choose.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

As I said in my last post, the Naval portion of this game is unfortunately fubar and totally broken... there is no chance that we can simulate realistic naval battle with the current model. We just have to accept this and move on and do the best with what we have. That is using our own house rules when we play and don't abuse the flawed system. Even with this approach we can't simulate it properly, but this is what we have... ...until PI decide to do a really well thought out naval combat model.

 

[JASGripen]

This happens because convoy attacks doesn't affect the enemy unity AT ALL. I was always able to cripple the Merchant Marine to nonexistence in 1.1, but their NU is unaffected. This is broken...

Isn't it so that if the defender can counter the Str. warfare, even if ineffectively, the NU does not get hurt? I remember something in this way from a dev. diary.

 

[Federkiel]

Isn't it so that if the defender can counter the Str. warfare, even if ineffectively, the NU does not get hurt? I remember something in this way from a dev. diary.

The reverse is true. Defender gets a bonus on NU in this case. You can look it up in your political tab. Positive net effects are the rule, not the exception.

 

[JRB9289]

Yeah, convoys and subs are completely busted. I hope this has been addressed in the up and coming patch.

 

[JASGripen]

The reverse is true. Defender gets a bonus on NU in this case. You can look it up in your political tab. Positive net effects are the rule, not the exception.

Well, that could anyway explain that some seems to have problem to affect NU even though they fare a strategic war. Correct?

 

[unmerged(61401)]

Well, that could anyway explain that some seems to have problem to affect NU even though they fare a strategic war. Correct?

No, they did not counter it (zero ASW attacks). I had a screenshot posted in some other topic about this.

 

[JASGripen]

No, they did not counter it (zero ASW attacks). I had a screenshot posted in some other topic about this.

Ok. But I better check that dev. diary. But I think it was sufficient to have the means top counter, not to actually perform a successful defence. Anyone with this at the top of their head?


From the dev. diary:

National Unity can be raised only though events/decisions and espoinage and
these can also lower national unity. National Unity can also be lowered by
unconsested strategic warfare, your submarines and bombers canot force a
country to surrender, but they cannot be ignored. Britain must divert
surface and air assets to counter a sustained German U-baot comapign or see
them steadly start to contemplate defeat, while if Germany does not
withdraw fighters to counter an Allied bombing offensive their will to
continue weaken. National Unity will raise the level of realism in Hearts
Of Iron 3 to a new level.​

 

[whitepatch]

Subs need to be cheap enough in construction time, resource cost, and tech investment to make them worth building. Convoys are cheap to make; it is too easy to outproduce and losses a subforce can inflict on them. Also, the UK stockpiles enough resources to not need to fear any submarine threat. Until changes are made; no one can have any kind of Battle of Atlantic.

 

[AlanC9]

YEven with the investment we both assume, many of them get lost - unless one concentrates them in a ahistorical-nonsene-gamey fleet.

Just like cruizerging - that is RTS rubbish à la C&C.

As i see it, HoI is intended to work on a more reasonable, more historical basis.

Of course, how HoI is intended to work and how it actually works aren't exactly the same thing.

 

[unmerged(129995)]

Britain must divert surface and air assets to counter a sustained German U-baot comapign or see
them steadly start to contemplate defeat,​

Lolwut.