[Submod] Turks,Mongols & Mamluks; plus a few changes for HIP - Updated as - TMM History Only.1.9.20

[Submod] Turks,Mongols & Mamluks; plus a few changes for HIP - Updated as - TMM History Only.1.9.20

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Ese Khan

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And do you know if there is a possibility of such mechanics becoming part of the main mod? It sort of was the core of politics of the Muslim world at the time, I feel like it should be a direct feature...
At least the history files have been incorporated into SWMH beta, you will see them in effect in the next save-incompatible HIP release.
 

raven63

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I really like the ideas in this mod. I hope one day it will be part of the main mod, or, better yet, part of the main game :)
 
Snippet of progress

Qutb87

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A much smaller and more vague progress update than I hoped. I also can't seem to post images properly so links will have to do.

In a nutshell I'm making it so relevant Muslim rulers rely entirely on retinues ( more on them later) and special baron tier mamluk regiments for their chief military power. Cities will be only good for wealth and temple holdings only really martial in certain contexts. Overall I'm trying a military overhaul generally with much of martial Christendom also being looked at.

Baron tier vassals now represent mamluk regiments as opposed to the dynamic merc model from before. Availability is currently based on a special military slavery law available to specific feudal government Muslim realms at certain tech levels.

They have their own government which is essentially fully subservient to their liege when it comes to obligations.

https://imgur.com/lOVpStU

Specific unit compositions will depend on the type of mamluk regiment owning the holding. In this single case, Bahri mamluks. Relevant Muslim rulers will have these sorts of mamluk vassal regiments already present on start up via on action events. The numbers and buildings are just at a basic placeholder level. Will need to work out troop amounts etc later.

https://imgur.com/a/zf2F2eL

All their buildings will be handled via decisions or perhaps events. Only the basic regiment building giving units is currently ready. There will be other location specific buidlings to counter province modifiers which negatively affect levy amounts etc. These are meant to represent a standing army after all and their growth is down to the actions of a liege.
 

Qutb87

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A quick title history update I've just done. Breaks the monotony of the various buildings, events etc I'm working through.

Fakhr al-Din Yusuf ibn al-Shaykh. Long serving Ayyubid diplomat and soldier whose family had their origins in Khorasan. First comes to prominence serving as Al-Kamil's envoy to the Holy Roman Emperor in 1226.
Years later was a powerful member of the Ayyubid Egyptian regime and had a number of decent command postings. His most important one occurred when tasked by As-Salih with defending Damietta from the upcoming 7th Crusade in the late 1240s.
He failed and infamously retreated before the Crusader advance leading to the Sultan nearly ordering his execution. At least one contemporary Muslim source says he was spared by the Sultan's premature death from illness. He eventually redeemed his name by dying in battle facing down the initial Crusader surprise attack at Mansurah in 1250. He was also a major player in the initial Mamluk coup just after the Sultan's death.

Haven't given any stats but might do something involving diplomacy or tough soldier. May as well set him up as duke tier ruler of Damietta from back in 1241 right up to his death in battle.

https://imgur.com/Igwt7Ex
 
Military Changes 1: Basic Premise & Byzantines

Qutb87

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Terrain Based Armies
As a default this is what is always available to all as the basic option. For example mountainous provinces give mainly infantry. Another would be forests, jungle etc. giving mainly archers, or cavalry only usually being found in open plains.
Done to save having to edit the many different cultural castles in order to make portraying slave armies easier. This sort of does the same thing as culture castles but in a much less detailed fashion. Cultures on the map generally correspond to their environment anyway.

More Advanced Armies
These replace more basic systems and allow for incorporating more heavily armed and professional forces. Less limited by location, terrain, culture etc. in the armies they can field.
Heavier units (knights, pike-men & heavy infantry) are far more restricted to these states. Outside of mercenaries or a handful of other exceptions, only the richer societies in game can have them.

Imperial Byzantine
An example of a more advanced military setup relative to other states, would be the Byzantine Empire. They will be given a very abstract portrayal of their historical military. This is the basic progress so far.

- Themes
The basis of this can be shown as the Themes system of army divisions. Here they are building chains which offer a decent level of heavy infantry and some heavy cavalry right from the start. The higher levels of these buildings are only able to be built by Duke tier or above characters. Themes are only available to Imperial Government Byzantine Empire characters. May restrict them even further to Greek culture characters.

https://imgur.com/a/kYRQHOX

- Tagmata
Available only to the emperor and located in Constantinople to represent the many standing army divisions. A series of buildings which give a large boost to retinue caps. May also create special much more cost effective retinues which can be recruited if the Tagmata buildings are present. This will be where the emperor gets the bulk of his heavy cavalry.

https://imgur.com/Fzyvjde
 
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Qutb87

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Sorry for the late replies.

Will this mod also improve on the Mongols /the Chinggisid Khanates?
Yes in a nutshell. Although much of this will depend on the time factor I ultimately mention below. I've already switched to just EMF without SWMH on account of this.

Approximate release date?
Not soon I'm afraid. I think it is possible to represent slave armies and other aspects of medieval Islamic military in a reasonable way, but it's taking some time. Unique governments, building chains and special landed barony vassals etc. Before now I'd only really been modding this for just over a year at intermittent periods. I wish I had looked into modding CK2 sooner.

That being said much of whether I stick to it depends on CK3. The game announcement was a bit of a broadside. Although it shouldn't really have been a surprise to be frank. If it looks as though the game will feature adequate representation of said systems, or if it is easily modifiable enough to do so, then I will certainly stop working on this.
 

Bad german crusader

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I really really liked the concept of this mod back when it was just a simple mod that only really allowed

1. Slave Commander generation

2. Slave-Lead Vassal Merc Companies

If it had stayed on these features and build up on them, instead of expanding into all sorts of directions, it would have been a pretty good mod, honestly the only thing that i felt was off back then was

1. A lack of reasons to not use slaves as your governors (They didnt feel like they had any threat associated with them, ainve they were basicly always at 70 opinion)

2. A certian OP-ness in having slave merc armies with great composition in addition to Retinues and Levies.
 

Qutb87

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Vassal mercs don't actually do anything (rebel, interact, join factions etc.) without loads and loads of background events to force them to. Even then it doesn't really work as well as simply creating landed special vassals with levies. Though to avoid that I did eventually work out a way to get them to behave as other vassals using an extra titular dynamic title but there were other issues. Namely that merc vassals almost certainly don't register in AI war calculations. They appear with their troops in realm power trees and even factions but externally likely don't get factored in. So you'd have a king tier ruler appearing extremely weak ( no levies etc) when in reality they have several powerful dynamic mercenary bands at their disposal.

Background events needed to tidy up and maintain existing merc bands became very convoluted and complicated. Should also add much of this is still intended to be experimental. Really I'm about 6 years too late to the CK2 modding game.
 
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Mamluk Succession

Qutb87

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Seems possible to do as a succession type for certain mamluk run states. At this point just for Egypt as a special one similar to the ERE mechanics. This was less than a month into the start. Eventually more eligible candidates appeared.

https://imgur.com/a/gIdwjL4

Likely should not be default and only present in certain starts (Aybak etc ). Just an example in this instance.
 
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Dogukan91

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still very interested in this man. Good luck.
Don't overextend yourself please. It'd be great if we had a good representation of Islamic State structures of the day and the Ghulam/Mamelukes.
Even better if they can do coups and create dynamic ghulam dynasties.
 

IAmNotAmused

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Themes are only available to Imperial Government Byzantine Empire characters. May restrict them even further to Greek culture characters.
https://imgur.com/Fzyvjde
I wouldn't limit them to just Greeks. There were a *lot* of Armenians serving in the Roman army of the 9th-11th centuries. Basil I may have been part Armenian. There may have been Bulgarian strategioi, as Basil II's successors deconstructed and dispersed the Bulgarian nobility by assigning them to posts in the east...at least until those same successors no longer had much of an east.
 
News Update: More Historical Rulers

Qutb87

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Sorry for late replies. Back to adding more history files which will be present for whenever I release the latest version.

Still many gaps with vanilla placeholders which needed fixing. Main focus still on improving Mamluk Syria as I continue work on the special Mamluk government concept.

Mamluk al-Bira
Approximately corresponding to the in game al-Ruha/Edessa region, this was one of the most important fortresses in the Mamluk empire. A major line of defense against Mongol invasion.
Added historical Mamluk governors of this region from the time of Baybars all the way until the last start date.
A famous one being Aqqush al-Barli. Former mamluk of al-Aziz Muhammad, veteran of Ayn Jalut, brief governor of Palestine under Qutuz, Syrian adventurer, aspiring sultan of Aleppo and ultimately a rival of Baybars before he submitted.

https://imgur.com/a/sALYMuU

Mamluk Palestine

Breaking up some of the duke tier blobs such as Jerusalem and Syria in certain starts with various characters.

One example being Badr al-Din Muhammad. Son of the notorious Khwarizmi chieftain, brother in-law to Baybars and uncle to Baybars' short lived successor. Important emir during the reign of Baybars and his first son. Made him ruler of Jerusalem as his family apparently remained active in the area and his clan mausoleum is generally accepted to be located there.

https://imgur.com/a/PHh0k9S
Stats are random.

Ilkhanate Syria

Adding historical members of the various Mongol invasions. Either as commanders, family members or governors brought in to administer the conquered areas.

We all know of Kitbuqa, the defiant Mongol commander at Ayn Jalut. Well did you know that history has recorded the name of at least one of his sons? Named as Qutlugh Qaymish by Ibn Wasil. Apparently captured and had a conversation with Qutuz during or after Ayn Jalut. This may have served as the inspiration behind the likely fictional boast Kitbuqa is said to have made before his death.

https://imgur.com/a/Df86few
Random stats

Kitbuqa's brief occupation government, his commanders and pro-Mongol collaborators. An expanding list.

https://imgur.com/a/SWVpsoj - Tukal Bakhshi. Unnamed and alluded to in Arabic sources but named in the Persian ones. Foreign bureaucrat ( likely a Uighur Buddhist or perhaps eastern/steppe Muslim ) governor of Aleppo under Kitbuqa

https://imgur.com/a/g8L8yOz - Badr al-Din Yusuf al-Khwarazmi. An ex-Ayyubid governor of Baalbek. Sided with the Mongols so they reinstated his position. Was likely still overseen by an unnamed Mongol superior.

As well as at least 3 of his named key commanders. With the accompanying stats and historical entries relevant to their characters.

Ilkhanate Mosul

https://imgur.com/a/GG4ki5E - The mysterious Mulay. Mongol governor of Mosul by at least 1296 and major military commander in the Ilkhanate. Leading part of Ghazan era major offensives into Mamluk Syria. Works of historical fantasy have apparently on occasion fused this Mongol general with the Templar Jacques de Molay.


How playable is this mod exactly right now?
Not very I'd say. History files are well out of date but the old dynamic merc stuff probably works.
 
Last edited:

Qutb87

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Any news? I look forward to a playthrough and since the game's development is finished maybe we can have a stable version?
Sorry late reply. I try not to post unless I have worthwhile news. The plan is to have a release available around the end of this month. Depending of course on how much editing I'll have to do if a new HIP comes out before.

I have been sidetracked foolishly with updating history files at the expense of trying to improve or create actual mechanics. However the plus side is that there are now several historic mamluk characters with actual family members as well as more of al-Nasir's massive family and in laws. The mamluks are starting to feel like a ruling elite with inter relations.

e.g Salar the vice sultan missing from the game who ruled Egypt jointly with Baibars Jashnakir until al-Nasir finally overthrew them. He is one of the earliest mamluk emirs for whom good information exists on his extended family as well as descendants. I need to add his 3 renaming siblings. A few other major emirs have had family members added too.

ck2_14.png


I also have started updating Egypt itself with landed mamluk era historical elites where possible on top of continuing to add to chunks of Syrian history titles.

From now on I will update history as I go along in an ad hoc fashion. Mainly focusing on making the various mamluk systems work. I will probably post another update soon to show what I mean.
 
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famaouz

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Sorry late reply. I try not to post unless I have worthwhile news. The plan is to have a release available around the end of this month. Depending of course on how much editing I'll have to do if a new HIP comes out before.

I have been sidetracked foolishly with updating history files at the expense of trying to improve or create actual mechanics. However the plus side is that there are now several historic mamluk characters with actual family members as well as more of al-Nasir's massive family and in laws. The mamluks are starting to feel like a ruling elite with inter relations.

e.g Salar the vice sultan missing from the game who ruled Egypt jointly with Baibars Jashnakir until al-Nasir finally overthrew them. He is one of the earliest mamluk emirs for whom good information exists on his extended family as well as descendants. I need to add his 3 renaming siblings. A few other major emirs have had family members added too.

View attachment 575652

I also have started updating Egypt itself with landed mamluk era historical elites where possible on top of continuing to add to chunks of Syrian history titles.

From now on I will update history as I go along in an ad hoc fashion. Mainly focusing on making the various mamluk systems work. I will probably post another update soon to show what I mean.
Glad you're still around :)
 
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