[submod] Pagan Improvement Project

[antibush5]

The Greeks and Romans had sacred groves, caves, ect, and also built great monuments to their gods. They were far from completely unified and there was no head per sé. Especially in the Greek case each city state had its own priesthood. There were also titan cults dedicated to various pre-Olympian beings. As well as later very mystical agnostic schools of philosophy. However, there were pan-Greek sites such as Delphi. There is no reason given sufficient resources other pagan religions could not reach that as well.

You're missing what I'm saying, I'll use Norse Paganism as an example, the main tenants of Norse Paganism are fighting based, which is based in a tribal culture, the system of society changes, it becomes feudal and the religion would have to change to reflect that, in a somewhat reasonable manner, resources can be extracted more easily, people are living longer, concepts of like writing and literacy are spreading, the religion would have to change to reflect that. Not only that but it's coming into contact with Christianity, a centralised religion with literate clergy with spiritual and philosophical practices that challenged Norse paganism in a way that caused people to convert away from it, if this mod is about making the pagan experience better and more historical, then it'd have to address this.

 

[vyshan]

I have some ideas for the Reformation that I will take a look at later, once I take care of other things I wish to do first. But once I get closer to taking a look at that I will let you all know. I will let you know that I am looking at trying to overhaul the whole thing.

Anyways News: After speaking with Cybrxkhan, I have gotten permission to use the VIET Immersion stuff for the mod. There is a lot here that will be useful IMO. Of note there are things for Finnish and West African Pagans that I will be looking to add. So look for them in the future.

I will try to get out 0.1 out tonight, Sadly no funeral events for 0.1, I want to get them, but they won't be in for 0.1. There will be bigger updates in the future though.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

You're missing what I'm saying, I'll use Norse Paganism as an example, the main tenants of Norse Paganism are fighting based, which is based in a tribal culture, the system of society changes, it becomes feudal and the religion would have to change to reflect that, in a somewhat reasonable manner, resources can be extracted more easily, people are living longer, concepts of like writing and literacy are spreading, the religion would have to change to reflect that. Not only that but it's coming into contact with Christianity, a centralised religion with literate clergy with spiritual and philosophical practices that challenged Norse paganism in a way that caused people to convert away from it, if this mod is about making the pagan experience better and more historical, then it'd have to address this.

Why would a organized religion increase prosperity and age of people?

 

[vyshan]

Version 0.1 is now released. Not a lot in this one, but the next update I promise there will be more. If you have any ideas on how to improve what I already added or stuff for later, do let me know. Also any bug reports please let me know as well.

Download Here

Features:
- Perform a general sacrifice to gain piety
- Perform a Sacrifice to a deity of your faith for potential blessings
- As a Slavic Pagan raise a Balwan to a Slavic deity.

 

[antibush5]

Why would a organized religion increase prosperity and age of people?

I wasn't saying that, but it could be argued that organised religions tend to allow more organised charity efforts and the establishment of things like hospices throughout Europe.
Also first release! I'll test it out in a bit and report any bugs.

 

[Peter Bond]

HIP is allready a great mod in my opinion and I'm really looking forward for this submod. Just one question though, when those boni are activated, (let's say for a blot with sacrifices) would it be possible to apply those to a certain event or until the next peace is signed or the next plunder brought home. It really bugs me as it is now where you have to wait for nine years and then get a small bonus for just one year in wich time you might have not seen the first battle of the war you were preparing for.

Oh and would it be possible to apply a small bonus to your dynastie or successor when you die in battle rather than in the arms of your concubine ?

Thanks allready for this submod, I really like the norse religion but I hope all the other pagans will finally become more interesting too.

 

[vyshan]

I wasn't saying that, but it could be argued that organised religions tend to allow more organised charity efforts and the establishment of things like hospices throughout Europe.
Also first release! I'll test it out in a bit and report any bugs.

For me it is not the religion being organized by the government. Look at Rome and Greece as examples. Graeco-Roman religion is going to be the main insperation for what a 'reformed' pagan faith will be. As I mentioned governments, one of the key things to this overhaul will be to be 'civilized' ie not tribal or nomadic(so adopting an imperial, feudal, or merchant Republic government).

also, what are the thoughts on version 0.1? I know there wasn't a lot in Version 0.1. Still like get to opinions and thoughts.

But the next version, will have a number of new features as I am adapting a lot of VIET Immersion stuff; this includes West Africans which I didn't really plan on adding stuff for.

HIP is allready a great mod in my opinion and I'm really looking forward for this submod. Just one question though, when those boni are activated, (let's say for a blot with sacrifices) would it be possible to apply those to a certain event or until the next peace is signed or the next plunder brought home. It really bugs me as it is now where you have to wait for nine years and then get a small bonus for just one year in wich time you might have not seen the first battle of the war you were preparing for.

When I get to redoing the Blot event, it won't be every 9 years. It also won't be dealing with human sacrifices either.

 

[vyshan]

I am working on 0.2 which will be a major update as I integrate a good chunk of the VIET Immersion stuff which is well immersive, which will add a lot for people including mystic stuff(shamans and volvas) to bardic stuff(Griots, bards, and skalds); the bardic stuff will apply to non-pagans. So if you are say the sunni king of Mali or the christian King of Ireland you get them and their events all the same.

However, I have some questions/research help wanted.

1.) I am wanting to know if there is a bard/skaldic tradition for the baltic, Finnish/Uralic, and Slavic regions?
2.) relatedly is there a class of magic users for the Slavic and Baltic Pagans similarly to the Volvas of the Norse and Shamans of the Tengri, West African, and Finnish/Uralic faiths?
3.) As always, always looking for more ideas for events to add(including cultural stuff), particularly interested in baltic and Slavic pagans/cultures.

 

[R'hllor]

For your first question, at least in Finland, Karelia and Estonia there was the tradition of singing poetry (the national epics of Finland and Estonia are based on these poems). This poetry was also related to the shamans, as many poems were spells. A common form of these spells were spells about the birth of the targeted object, for example a poem about the birth of iron is used in Kalevala to heal Väinämöinen after he wounded himself with an axe. It was believed that knowing the birth of iron or disease or whatever gave the shamans the power to heal the damage. Knowledge was literally power. In addition to healing spells, there were also curses, blessings, prayers, all in the poetic form, and of course stories.

 

[Narvait]

1) I guess it should be there. At least we have like 200-400k little 4-row poems (dainas) collected as folk material in Latvia, and some epics (teikas) too (Kurbads).
2) of course. But not sure if they had one same name (perhaps kryvis or vaidelotis). But there are plenty of names for those guys.
3) will brainstorm some for Balts. One thing for high chiefs is the fire for funeral - together with favorite Sword, horse and concubine.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

There where some offerings are greater than other. A cow would be a great offering for a chief, horses even greater. Human offerings I'm not sure, but according to snorri the greates sacrifice was the king himself.

So my suggestion that some sacrifice would give more piety, prestige, moral than others. Food/grain, different kinds of animals, humans, noblemen, chiefs/count, jarl/petty king/duke, king, emperour.

Something like that.

 

[Narvait]

There where some offerings are greater than other. A cow would be a great offering for a chief, horses even greater. Human offerings I'm not sure, but according to snorri the greates sacrifice was the king himself.

So my suggestion that some sacrifice would give more piety, prestige, moral than others. Food/grain, different kinds of animals, humans, noblemen, chiefs/count, jarl/petty king/duke, king, emperour.

Something like that.

That is like Proto-Indo-European old.
I think there is this very archaic motive about twins (Priest and King) and I think Priest sacrifices the King. Or king sacrifices himself when on old age. Something similar to Old Prussian legend of Videvut and Bruteno - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widewuto (At the age of 116, Widewuto burned himself together with Bruteno in a religious ceremony in the temple of Romuva)
Also Old Prussians had two idols I think - the Chief (Virskait) and the His Brother (Iszswaibrat).

After some investigation I am pretty confident all North Euros (Celts, Germans, Slavs, Balts) had human sacrifices... I am not a fan myself, but this is historically accurate to sacrifice prisoners to gods and the greater the prisoner or if of different faith, the more honor to gods...

 

[Harald Fairhair]

There are some extreme stories in viking sagas, kings sacrificing their children for gaining moral or foolish belef that they gain longer life (thou this is only mention twice). I don't know if there are some stories amongst the other pagans with that kind of extreme.

 

[vyshan]

Thanks for the research help. 0.2 is coming along nicely.

As for the human sacrifice, I won't be including it for the most part for several reasons.

1.) I am highly skeptical of christian accounts which talk about human sacrifice.
2.) Furthermore, most accounts seem to say it was rare
3.) more importantly if I include a mechanic for human sacrifice, then it will happen often. The pagan faiths are not the Aztecs I don't want the focus to be about human sacrifice.

On the other hand, I may allow you to do human sacrifice if your guy is zealous + possessed/insane/schizo and so on. I will be including however the sacrifice of servants/thralls for funerals. This should be fair.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Small suggestion for Old Norsemen, to reach valhall they had to die in combat. Some warriors who becomes old "somethimes" went to war for the sake of dying in battle.

 

[theKing1988]

Small suggestion for Old Norsemen, to reach valhall they had to die in combat. Some warriors who becomes old "somethimes" went to war for the sake of dying in battle.

How on earth would you suggest that Vyshan can even turn this into something concrete in-game?

 

[Harald Fairhair]

How on earth would you suggest that Vyshan can even turn this into something concrete in-game?

Ambition for dying in combat, increase chance for viking AI to attack stronger targets, or challenge someone with high personal combat skill to duel?

 

[Urzhail64]

Thanks for the research help. 0.2 is coming along nicely.

As for the human sacrifice, I won't be including it for the most part for several reasons.

1.) I am highly skeptical of christian accounts which talk about human sacrifice.
2.) Furthermore, most accounts seem to say it was rare
3.) more importantly if I include a mechanic for human sacrifice, then it will happen often. The pagan faiths are not the Aztecs I don't want the focus to be about human sacrifice.

On the other hand, I may allow you to do human sacrifice if your guy is zealous + possessed/insane/schizo and so on. I will be including however the sacrifice of servants/thralls for funerals. This should be fair.

I'd limit human sacrifices for the Norse religion to once every 9 years as the number 9 held special significance among the Norse particulary in the myth of Odin's hanging upside down from a tree for nine days, nine nights to acquire the wisdom of the runes. And even then only if the sacrificer had the Zealous trait. The tradition of killing animals/servants to accompany the deceased in the afterlife is pretty well documented/confirmed from findings at Norse burial sites.

 

[LordDamien]

Will there be Ancient Egyptian Pagans ? ( Not the Greek version but pure Ancient Egyptian )

Will explain more in detail later today.. but yeah I was wondering if you would include them. ( They worship the main gods of Amun Osris, Isis Etc ) Their holy site is Abydos Egypt

 

[Gwyn ap Nud]

Kemetic Paganism had long since been wholly replaced with the Coptic Church. I doubt there are enough people in-game to add a whole new religion. My understanding of this submod is the aim is to add depth to existing pagan religions, not add anachronistic new religions.