[submod] Pagan Improvement Project

[antidualist]

Norsemen should have the option to insult a man they don't like, if this insult goes unpunished the person who where insulted should gain a negative opinion. As for holmgard they the winner should gain som coin of the defeated man, the insulter should gain smaller reward than the offender.

Why should this be unique to the norse, seems like some thing all cultures would have...

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Why should this be unique to the norse, seems like some thing all cultures would have...

I just mention it, my knowledge is more based upon Norse than other cultures. But if I mention something about norse (like holmgang) there is a possibility that someone who knows something similar in other cultures. Just like you now mention this is similar to most cultures.

 

[R'hllor]

Insulting others is probably one of the few things all cultures have in common. And since you mentioned holmgang, which deserves to be in the game IMO too, there should also be trials by combat and more duels, but these things probably aren't exactly what this mod is focusing on.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

What about swearing to acomplish somthing in the name of a god. Like "I, Harald swear that I will not cut or grom my hair before I have the kingdom of Norway by the name of Odin!"

Losing or Gaining prestige and piety for acomplish or abandon promise.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

One thing i know about the norse is they did worship two groups of gods, Vanir and Æsir. They could worship one or the other and some places both. Vanir was normaly worshiped in Rygafilky, Viken, Opplandene and Dal. Æsir where worshiped in Hålogaland, Jylland, Skåne, Gøtaland. Both gods in Vestlandet, Møre, Trøndelag, Naumdal, Slesvig, Syland, Gotland, Svitjod. Maybe theres something similar in other pagan-religions?

 

[R'hllor]

One thing i know about the norse is they did worship two groups of gods, Vanir and Æsir. They could worship one or the other and some places both. Vanir was normaly worshiped in Rygafilky, Viken, Opplandene and Dal. Æsir where worshiped in Hålogaland, Jylland, Skåne, Gøtaland. Both gods in Vestlandet, Møre, Trøndelag, Naumdal, Slesvig, Syland, Gotland, Svitjod. Maybe theres something similar in other pagan-religions?

There were certainly a lot of regional differences with all pagan faiths. Though it might prove difficult to find enough knowledge of gods to have a different pantheon for all cultures. Some regional differences would be nice though, at least after the general stuff gets done.

 

[Erilaz]

One thing i know about the norse is they did worship two groups of gods, Vanir and Æsir. They could worship one or the other and some places both. Vanir was normaly worshiped in Rygafilky, Viken, Opplandene and Dal. Æsir where worshiped in Hålogaland, Jylland, Skåne, Gøtaland. Both gods in Vestlandet, Møre, Trøndelag, Naumdal, Slesvig, Syland, Gotland, Svitjod. Maybe theres something similar in other pagan-religions?

Where does this information come from?

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Archelogical research

Kim Hjardar
Book:Vikingenes Verden

You could also look at the map I found on this wiki page. If I'm asuming right, e du dansk så tru æ du kanj lesa, if not theres google translate.
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrøn_religion

If this becomes a thing in the mod I would have begun with the largest ones, Tengri or Soumersko (don't kow wich), then slavs, norse, and romuvan.

 

[Erilaz]

It seems like the regional differences you mention are mostly based on place names, which is quite interesting but hardly convincing. The archaeological evidence is not explained on the wiki page, so I can't comment on the assessment as a whole. I'd love to read an excerpt of the evidence for the regions presented by the map if you could provide it.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

It seems like the regional differences you mention are mostly based on place names, which is quite interesting but hardly convincing. The archaeological evidence is not explained on the wiki page, so I can't comment on the assessment as a whole. I'd love to read an excerpt of the evidence for the regions presented by the map if you could provide it.

I'll try find somthing about it.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Well it seems vanir were not worshiped in south germanic religion , no Knowledge of them there. And the teori seems that vanir was a religion alone before the faith got mixed in the åsatrua. I'll try to find data on the map I presented.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Source of the map, the norsemen in the viking age by Eric Christiansen

 

[Harald Fairhair]

I tend to be skeptical about that account. I find his account rather biased. Not to say he isn't useful, nor that there weren't important blots at Uppsala(there almost certainly were), but his particular account makes me skeptical. Now we do have an account of something that could be regarded as human sacrifice and that is Ibn Fadlan's account of a funeral of the viking Rus which has a slave girl killed.

I will eventually be altering the Blot event the norse have atm so it doesn't have human sacrifice, still working on the specifics of that though.


Anyways, I do have my plan for what I hope to get out by the end of the week and that are offerings. Currently the plan is that everyone gets a general sacrifice and a religious specific sacficie decisions. The general religious sacrifice is a simple thing click it and you get a little bonus to piety and same religion opinion.

The religious specific sacrifice though is a little event chain, where you pick a deity you wish to give sacrifices to for blessing, how big of a sacrifice you want it to be, then the sacrifice itself, followed by the priests telling you if gods have blessed you or not. If so, you get a small bonus relating to either war, trade, fertility, peace, or research, depending on whom you offered to. If the priests say no blessing, then you just get the performed sacrifice modifier from the general sacrifice decision.

Currently you can only do them if you are of that particular faith, but I want to have it so if you have a province of that faith and are pagan you can do these sacrifices. It doesn't really change much considering the bonuses are all the same, but still just a little flavor thing.

Here is the currently deity and what bonuses you get for doing offerings to them.

Slavic: Perun(war), Dazbog(trade), Mokosh(fertility), Radegast(peace), Veles(knowledge)
Norse: Thor(war), Njord(trade), Freyr(fertility), Tyr(peace), Odin(knowledge)
Finnic: Perkele(war), Mielikki(trade), Akka(fertility), Haltija(peace), Vainamoinen(knowledge)
Baltic: Perkunas(war), Mara(trade), Saule(fertility), Gabija(peace), Veles(knowledge)

About deity, pagans where open to other gods (most of them anyway). Would it not be something if an event alows you to chose a deity from other religions? Like a norseman choses a diety like perun, or even christ and still worship their own pagan gods.

 

[vyshan]

About deity, pagans where open to other gods (most of them anyway). Would it not be something if an event alows you to chose a deity from other religions? Like a norseman choses a diety like perun, or even christ and still worship their own pagan gods.

Still working on it, but what I want is if you are pagan and own a province of a different pagan faith, then you can offer the sacrifices to their deities. Such as say a slavic province by the norse, then you can honor one of the slavic Gods as well as do a Norse sacrifice. The bonuses don't change, only the fluff, but it is one of the things which I hopes show the polythesitic nature of the faiths.

 

[antibush5]

I tend to find that paganism even when reformed, doesn't feel like it's advanced past the mud huts stage of human development, so would it be possible for some reformed flavour events? Something that shows the religion has developed past it's primitive roots, to rival the cathedrals of Rome and Constantinople.
What about some things like the movement away from sacred groves to temple spaces, establishing different schools of thought, the centralisation of the priesthood?
Or maybe this stuff is on the more fantasy end of things and not really suitable for your submod.

 

[R'hllor]

I tend to find that paganism even when reformed, doesn't feel like it's advanced past the mud huts stage of human development, so would it be possible for some reformed flavour events? Something that shows the religion has developed past it's primitive roots, to rival the cathedrals of Rome and Constantinople.
What about some things like the movement away from sacred groves to temple spaces, establishing different schools of thought, the centralisation of the priesthood?
Or maybe this stuff is on the more fantasy end of things and not really suitable for your submod.

The reformed pagans should probably still be feudal as well to be able to rival cathedrals. I imagine building massive temples isn't going to happen if people still live in their tribal huts. But I think it's a nice idea, even though it crosses to the realm of fantasy.

 

[Ruskhan]

This mod is sooo needed!

 

[Narvait]

About human sacrifices. It is an interesting topic.

One point that is clear - as part of funeral rite for Gediminas he was burned together with horse, sword, favorite servant(s). It was also quite common for different IE people to burn wife together with her dead husband. Perhaps wife or one of concubines would have to accompany her master to the other world.

But other human sacrifices I do not know for Balts (as in to please gods or during feasts). They are possible, just I do not know sources.


About pan-Baltic Romuva gods:
As far as I know only Pērkons (Perkunas, etc) God of Thunder and Laima (Laima) Goddess of Fate are pan-Baltic and attested in souces for all Balts.
One might argue however that Saule (Sun), Mēness (Menulis, Moon) and Dievs (God) were also pan-Baltic. Not sure if Velns (Velnas, Devil) for Prussians too?
But Dievs is unclear whether he is part of pantheon, head of pantheon or just name of God(s) in general who became its own God and head of pantheon because of Christian influence.

 

[Narvait]

Ok, checked on sources. Here European Paganism book claims Germanics, Slavs and Balts all had human sacrifices. "They threw on top and burned the most outstanding and notable of captives, thinking their Gods were pleased..." (book quotes Jan Dlugosz on Lithuanian habits).

And here is more:
http://etalpykla.lituanistikadb.lt/obj/LT-LDB-0001:J.04~2002~1367173263863
"Human sacrifices are also proved by written sources, and historical facts are known when the Balts sacrifice themselves and their captives. Chronicle have kept the surnames of sacrificed Crusaders. The Baltic cult is characterised by harsh human and animal sacrifices."

 

[Caoimhin]

I tend to find that paganism even when reformed, doesn't feel like it's advanced past the mud huts stage of human development, so would it be possible for some reformed flavour events? Something that shows the religion has developed past it's primitive roots, to rival the cathedrals of Rome and Constantinople.
What about some things like the movement away from sacred groves to temple spaces, establishing different schools of thought, the centralisation of the priesthood?
Or maybe this stuff is on the more fantasy end of things and not really suitable for your submod.

The Greeks and Romans had sacred groves, caves, ect, and also built great monuments to their gods. They were far from completely unified and there was no head per sé. Especially in the Greek case each city state had its own priesthood. There were also titan cults dedicated to various pre-Olympian beings. As well as later very mystical agnostic schools of philosophy. However, there were pan-Greek sites such as Delphi. There is no reason given sufficient resources other pagan religions could not reach that as well.