[submod] Pagan Improvement Project

[vyshan]

Hello,

As I mentioned recently in the EMF thread, I had a number of ideas for improving paganism. I find a number of the pagan faiths a tad bland and generic. Not to mention, I dislike the focus on human sacrifice for the Norse(they weren't aztecs). Thus I decided to start work on this submod that would improve the pagan faiths. More events, things to do, and in general fleshing out the pagan faiths.

The goal of the mod is to focus on adding more flavor to the various pagan faiths, particularly of Northern Europe where I am focusing on. I am more then willing to accept help, particularly in research as I admit most of my knowledge on these faiths(baring the norse) comes from wikipedia.

I will admit that I am not that great of a Modder, but everyone starts somewhere. I use the default set up of HIP, so that is what the mod will be using. Naturally this submod will require the Old Gods to work with.

Requirements:
Default HIP, so EMF, SMWH, AKRO
Old Gods

Releasse Version:
Version 0.2

Changelog

Spoiler: Version 0.2

- Added bear hunts for Finnish Pagans
- Added Haltija and Haltija Sacrfices for Finnish Pagans
- Added Griots and Griot Events for West Africans, both culturally and religiously
- Added Skalds and Skaldic events for Norse as well as for North Germanic cultures and Norse-Gaelic Culture
- Added Volvas and Volva events for Norse Pagans
- Added Shamans and Shaman events for Tengri, West Africans and Finnish Pagans
- Changed it so that Tengri, West Africans, and Finnish Pagan court Chaplins have to be a shaman.

Spoiler: Version 0.1

- Perform a general sacrifice to gain piety
- Perform a Sacrifice to a deity of your faith for potential blessings
- As a Slavic Pagan raise a Balwan to a Slavic deity.

Planned Features:
- Gain piety through different sacrifices
- more festivals for each faith
- new court Chaplin ability
- Learning and dealing with magic(such as Norse Seidr, and Shamanism common among the Finnish, Sami and Uralic Tribes)

Credits:
R'hllor - for information relating to the Finnish pagans.
Cybrxkhan - for VIET Immersion
Herr Doctor - for slavic and baltic info

 

[Erilaz]

The exaggerated focus on human sacrifice has always been one of my least favourite things about the depiction of Norse pagan religion in CK2. Not to say that it didn't happen, but when it did, it was a probably reserved for major events like the Uppsala blot. I'll translate the section from Adam of Bremen that concerns this event (from a Danish translation); it's worth noting that in the paragraph above he speaks about griffins, amazons, cyclops, canibals, etc.

Now we shall speak a bit about the superstitions of the Swedes. This people has a revered temple that is called Uppsala and is situated not very far from Sigtuna. In this temple, that's entirely covered in gold, the people pray to depictions [totems] of three gods, and this in a manner so that Thor, who's the mightiest of these, sits in the middle while Odin and Frey sit on either side of him.

(In the vicinity of this temple there is a mighty tree, with far-reaching branches, evergreen, summer and winter; what type of tree nobody know. There is also a spring where the heathen offerings are usually completed, and where a living human is usually drowned. If he never appears again, the wish of the people is fulfilled. - A golden chain surrounds the temple; hanging over the building, it spreads its red sheen all over. The temple is situated on a plain and is like unto a theatre surrounded by hills [mountains]).

The meaning of these gods seem to be the following. Thor rules the sky as the one that governs thunder and lightning, wind and rain, mild weather and growth. For the second, Odin, it is rage; governs the fighting and gives man courage in the face of the enemy. The third is Frey who gives mortals peace and pleasure. - his picture is also given a very inappropriate appearance. Unlike that, Odin is depicted in full armour, kind of like Mars; Thor is depicted with a ruler's staff and seems to mirror Jupiter.

Furthermore they are devoted to humans that have been made gods and immortal for their great achievements. Holy Ansgar tells us that this was done to King Erik.

All their gods have their own priests that carry forth the offerings of the people. When plague and famine is at hand, they sacrifice to Thor; when there's war, to Odin; at wedding feasts to Frey. Every ninth year there is furthermore a festive occasion in Uppsala that is celebrated together by all the landscapes in Sweden.

(Recently, though, the Christian king, Anund, when he didn't want to bring the people's offering to the trolls, was relieved of the kingship; and it's said that he gladly left the thing [assembly] because he considered himself worthy to, for the sake of Jesus Christ's name, suffer humiliation).

This festival nobody dares spurn. King and people, society and individual, all send their offerings to Uppsala. And what's even more gruesome than any punishment, those who have already declared for Christendom must pay to avoid the traditions of the festivities. The sacrifice proceeds thus. From every living creature that is male, nine heads, with the blood of which it is custom to milden the gods. The bodies are hanged in a grove close to the temple; and this grove is also for the heathens so holy that every single tree is considered divine because of the death or the smell of the sacrificed. There you see dogs and horses hang together with humans; yes, a Christian man has told me that the number of bodies he's seen thus hang together was 72!

(For nine days the festivities and the other sacrifices connected to the customs last. Every day they sacrifice a human alongside other animals, so that the number of living victims of the sacrifice in the course of the nine days becomes 72. This offering happens at Spring Equinox).

The songs that are song in conjunction with these acts of offering are many and also so inappropriate that they had best be concealed.

 

[vyshan]

The exaggerated focus on human sacrifice has always been one of my least favourite things about the depiction of Norse pagan religion in CK2. Not to say that it didn't happen, but when it did, it was a probably reserved for major events like the Uppsala blot. I'll translate the section from Adam of Bremen that concerns this event (from a Danish translation); it's worth noting that in the paragraph above he speaks about griffins, amazons, cyclops, canibals, etc.

I tend to be skeptical about that account. I find his account rather biased. Not to say he isn't useful, nor that there weren't important blots at Uppsala(there almost certainly were), but his particular account makes me skeptical. Now we do have an account of something that could be regarded as human sacrifice and that is Ibn Fadlan's account of a funeral of the viking Rus which has a slave girl killed.

I will eventually be altering the Blot event the norse have atm so it doesn't have human sacrifice, still working on the specifics of that though.


Anyways, I do have my plan for what I hope to get out by the end of the week and that are offerings. Currently the plan is that everyone gets a general sacrifice and a religious specific sacficie decisions. The general religious sacrifice is a simple thing click it and you get a little bonus to piety and same religion opinion.

The religious specific sacrifice though is a little event chain, where you pick a deity you wish to give sacrifices to for blessing, how big of a sacrifice you want it to be, then the sacrifice itself, followed by the priests telling you if gods have blessed you or not. If so, you get a small bonus relating to either war, trade, fertility, peace, or research, depending on whom you offered to. If the priests say no blessing, then you just get the performed sacrifice modifier from the general sacrifice decision.

Currently you can only do them if you are of that particular faith, but I want to have it so if you have a province of that faith and are pagan you can do these sacrifices. It doesn't really change much considering the bonuses are all the same, but still just a little flavor thing.

Here is the currently deity and what bonuses you get for doing offerings to them.

Slavic: Perun(war), Dazbog(trade), Mokosh(fertility), Radegast(peace), Veles(knowledge)
Norse: Thor(war), Njord(trade), Freyr(fertility), Tyr(peace), Odin(knowledge)
Finnic: Perkele(war), Mielikki(trade), Akka(fertility), Haltija(peace), Vainamoinen(knowledge)
Baltic: Perkunas(war), Mara(trade), Saule(fertility), Gabija(peace), Veles(knowledge)

 

[Sowili]

What about expanding on the berserkir for Norse pagans? Right now it's only a rare combat trait you gain from RNG in battle. Perhaps it could be expanded upon and made more like an order of totemic warriors who you choose to join, and the úlfhéðnar too. There's some writing on similar elite warrior groups throughout ancient Europe and it once perhaps being a pan-European pagan tradition, but it's mostly only relevant to Scandinavia in the timeframes in HIP I think. Perhaps some kind of event chain for it, to hunt an animal and take its skin for your own as part of the initiation.

There could be other requirements or costs like prestige and piety, maybe some kind of interaction with CPRplus where they have different helmets in war (I think there's a Slavic landowner hat that is a wolf skin, the úlfhéðnar one would be easy to make from this). I'm having trouble finding what I read off of the top of my head but I can check for sources if need be, but none of this is very outlandish and you can find a lot on berserkir of this kind in a quick google search from different places.

If help is needed with research I've read a lot on pre-Christian Europe and might be able to help. For actual modding itself I'm kind of newbie to CK2 too though, I've been playing around personally tweaking, modding, stuff, but I haven't really done more (yet, anyway) than customise some portraits, and change values/conditions here and there for miscellaneous things.

 

[R'hllor]

I'd like to (again) correct you a bit. Akka and Väinämöinen are correct in your current plan, but others should be changed.

Starting with the god of war: according to the list of Finnish "false" gods by Mikael Agricola from the 16th century, he was called Turisas (also the name of an excellent Finnish band).

Perkele should be called Ukko, and he, as the god of rain and harvest could be linked to trade and prosperity. As Ukko is probably the most important Finnish god, and the husband of Akka, he most definitely needs to be here.

God of peace is the most difficult to find. Haltija isn't good, because that means elf in Finnish and there were lots of different elves in Finnish stories. For now, the best I could find for that role is Ilmarinen, who, according to Mikael Agricola again, "made peace and weather / and helped travellers forward". He is also known for being a god of wind and weather, as well as being a blacksmith in the national epic Kalevala. That one small quote is so far the only statement I could find that indicates him having something to do with peace, but there wasn't really any peace god and Ilmarinen has his nice relationship Väinämöinen, so he probably is the best choice for now.

 

[vyshan]

What about expanding on the berserkir for Norse pagans? Right now it's only a rare combat trait you gain from RNG in battle. Perhaps it could be expanded upon and made more like an order of totemic warriors who you choose to join, and the úlfhéðnar too. There's some writing on similar elite warrior groups throughout ancient Europe and it once perhaps being a pan-European pagan tradition, but it's mostly only relevant to Scandinavia in the timeframes in HIP I think. Perhaps some kind of event chain for it, to hunt an animal and take its skin for your own as part of the initiation.

I will likely be touching on Beserkers and the like once I get to doing more with mystic stuff, such as shamanism, Seidr, and other magical things. It probaly won't be an order you can join though, but the idea of using an event chain for it I might look into.

There could be other requirements or costs like prestige and piety, maybe some kind of interaction with CPRplus where they have different helmets in war (I think there's a Slavic landowner hat that is a wolf skin, the úlfhéðnar one would be easy to make from this). I'm having trouble finding what I read off of the top of my head but I can check for sources if need be, but none of this is very outlandish and you can find a lot on berserkir of this kind in a quick google search from different places.

I am not sure how to give people different hats depending on traits. I would need to speak with the CPR guys about how best to do that since I am not sure.

If help is needed with research I've read a lot on pre-Christian Europe and might be able to help. For actual modding itself I'm kind of newbie to CK2 too though, I've been playing around personally tweaking, modding, stuff, but I haven't really done more (yet, anyway) than customise some portraits, and change values/conditions here and there for miscellaneous things.

I always accept more information and ideas. Especially for the Slavic and Baltic Faiths as they are the ones that give me the most trouble atm in terms of finding customs and beliefs out.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Slavic: Perun(war), Dazbog(trade), Mokosh(fertility), Radegast(peace), Veles(knowledge)
Baltic: Perkunas(war), Mara(trade), Saule(fertility), Gabija(peace), Veles(knowledge)

Slavic gods. Dazhbog - actually is considered to be god of fertility and Sun (Yarilo could be good alternative as well).
While Mokosh ( goddess) is the one associated with trade and crafts.
Radegast - local god of the Obotrites pantheon and many modern researches even questioning that he might be very probably fantasy of later Christian chroniclers. Alternative could be goddess Živa (associated with life and peace).

For the Balts I would rather recommend orienting on Prussian or Lithuanian mythology as they are more universals for the Balts in my opinion. Perkunas and Saulė (also alternative could be Žemyna) are ok.
Dalia as goddess of goods and property is ideal for "trade".
Laima is more important for Baltic pantheons (goodness of happiness and fate, patron of childbirth), would rather make her for "peace" category.
Veles supposed to be Velnias I believe - very popular in Lithuanian folklore chthonic god that could be associated (including many other things) with crafts and livestock.

Hope this could be helpful.

 

[Erilaz]

If you have to use those set modifiers, I'd definitely swap around Thor and Tyr. Also, don't go head over heels with the berserkers...

 

[Robmel]

There should be a difference in gameplay (oats, sacrifices, festivals etc) between indoeuropean pagan (norse, slavic, baltic), steppe Turkic pagan and finno-ugric pagan religions.

Trinity of Prussian/Baltic Gods seemed to be very important for Baltic nations. Packols (underworld, death) Perkuns (war, thunder) Patrimps (fertility, life in general), which could be found in symbols (theory of origin of columns of Gedeminas) and some dubious and not so sources from 15th and 16th centuries.

Don't know about norse examples, but there was an attempt by Vladimir I of Rus to create a pantheon of pagan Gods from different tribes and cults in Kiev in the 10th century. Something of a centralization attempt of pagan religion and cults for his state.

Which brings me to a point that there shoulnd't be religious structures as holdings for pagans like Churches with their bishops. Vladimir's example above maybe illustrates a way of a pagan ruler trying to create some"structure" in pagan religion and that should be able to happen in rare cases under certain conditions. Rulers themselves often served as priests and performed rituals.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

What about gods of lies/evil/deception/chaos/death like Loki or other pagan gods with negativ view?

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Btw what about different types of burial? Norsemen had some like fire burials, shipsgraves, burial mounds, stones on the graves, maybe even runes on it. I think I can be sure that other faiths and cultures had their way of bury someone.

 

[vyshan]

Slavic gods. Dazhbog - actually is considered to be god of fertility and Sun (Yarilo could be good alternative as well).
While Mokosh ( goddess) is the one associated with trade and crafts.
Radegast - local god of the Obotrites pantheon and many modern researches even questioning that he might be very probably fantasy of later Christian chroniclers. Alternative could be goddess Živa (associated with life and peace).

For the Balts I would rather recommend orienting on Prussian or Lithuanian mythology as they are more universals for the Balts in my opinion. Perkunas and Saulė (also alternative could be Žemyna) are ok.
Dalia as goddess of goods and property is ideal for "trade".
Laima is more important for Baltic pantheons (goodness of happiness and fate, patron of childbirth), would rather make her for "peace" category.
Veles supposed to be Velnias I believe - very popular in Lithuanian folklore chthonic god that could be associated (including many other things) with crafts and livestock.

Hope this could be helpful.

It is helpful. Thanks. I fixed it already, so they will be in the first release.

If you have to use those set modifiers, I'd definitely swap around Thor and Tyr. Also, don't go head over heels with the berserkers...

Alright will do. the idea for the modifiers sort of came from EU:Rome which had eight options for omens. Which all functioned the same but were flavored differently.

As for the Berserkers you don't have to worry about me going head over heals when I get to them. I do want a couple of events for them. However, when I get to them, I want to be focusing more on more mystic stuff. Stuff like Shamanism for the finnic/uralic and Seidr for the Norse. Not sure the customs/terms and beliefs of magic for the Slavs and Balts but they did seem to believe in it.

However first is getting some more sacrifices and the basic stuff for the pagans down before I get into the mystics and other things that I wish to do.

There should be a difference in gameplay (oats, sacrifices, festivals etc) between indoeuropean pagan (norse, slavic, baltic), steppe Turkic pagan and finno-ugric pagan religions.

Not sure what should be different between them all gameplay wise, but, I am open to suggestions.

Trinity of Prussian/Baltic Gods seemed to be very important for Baltic nations. Packols (underworld, death) Perkuns (war, thunder) Patrimps (fertility, life in general), which could be found in symbols (theory of origin of columns of Gedeminas) and some dubious and not so sources from 15th and 16th centuries.

Seems somewhat similar to some of the triads of the romans with the Aventine, Archaic and Capataine triads. Still will do some research into them to get a better understanding as to the nature of the batlic triad and see what I can do.

Don't know about norse examples, but there was an attempt by Vladimir I of Rus to create a pantheon of pagan Gods from different tribes and cults in Kiev in the 10th century. Something of a centralization attempt of pagan religion and cults for his state.

I will look into that when I get to handling Reformations. I have some a number of ideas of what to do with them. Though overall I am not that fond of the reformation mechanic for pagans. I find the whole "monotheization" of the faiths as they are presented to be IMO rather stupid. Still I got a number of things I wish to handle first. Mystics, festivals, new action for court chaplins, and more before I get to figuring out how I wish to handle the reformation mechanics.

Which brings me to a point that there shoulnd't be religious structures as holdings for pagans like Churches with their bishops. Vladimir's example above maybe illustrates a way of a pagan ruler trying to create some"structure" in pagan religion and that should be able to happen in rare cases under certain conditions. Rulers themselves often served as priests and performed rituals.

I added the "can_hold_temples = yes" option for them. So they should have the ability to hold temples.

What about gods of lies/evil/deception/chaos/death like Loki or other pagan gods with negativ view?

That is a tricky subject. The myths were for the most part written down by christians, and through a christian lens. Personally, I am under the opinion that Loki was largely demonized by the christian writers who wrote all the myths down. Something I also noticed with Veles which the various wikipedias say had positive aspects before Christianization.

Still I might do some things to reference this tricky subject in the future, as I add more events for the faiths.

Btw what about different types of burial? Norsemen had some like fire burials, shipsgraves, burial mounds, stones on the graves, maybe even runes on it. I think I can be sure that other faiths and cultures had their way of bury someone.

Yea, there does seem to be different types of burial. Which makes since as every other tribe had their own customs and beliefs. It wasn't a uniformed religion or culture. I do want to do a Viking funeral, Ibn Fadlan's account is too rich and perfect not to use for a few events. Not entirely sure how to do Funeral events for people, though I am sure I can figure it out.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Considering that I am working on a submod for HIP that is working on improving the various pagan groups what would you add for the pagan faiths, norse and non-norse? Particularly looking at events, decisions, and other things to add in.

Zealots would try to convert provinces. There are few exsample of norsemen trying to convert people like Håkon Jarl of Norway, he tore down churches on Vestlandet and began anti-christian campain. Or Torgest of Dublin, he were able to convert some few person to pagan faith.

And there is the tribal system, I personally don't think it's perfect. There should be two different types of holding and goverment type, one more primitiv like the sami, and on farms wich chiefdans like norse lived in with far more advantages. Able to build more farms on the counties he is in controll of and even but minor chiefs to hold them, upgrade them to somthings like cities, temple and later castles. But farms should be able to easly be destroyd (unless its the last holding). A other thing about tribal people like sami is that they did not have social structure to form kingdoms, they should be restricted to high chiefdoms untill their laws become more sofisticated. (farms would be more historic holdings than castles since exsample norway did not have a castle untill late-1100)

Wery normal thing to do as a chiefdan is to claim you have ancestours back to the gods or heroes. Gives more prestige or opinion. If you have a norse skald he should be able to fabricate your way back to the gods. The skald should be able to create poems that would increase your prestige or lower it as an insult.

Norse succession could have been better worked on.

First of we have that a man can inherrit a chiefs title if he's married to his daughter and the chief has no sons.

Second sons of a chiefdan should inherrit the holdings he have, but a other King/Jarl could be chosen. But this could be a law where either chiefs are the ones who decides who will be the next ruler or king/petty king choses alone the heir before death. The next ruler will be a son unless theres no sons to chose from, the neares relative is likely chosen, a son-in-law, brother, uncel, cousin.

Third norse law says each sons shall have equall land and chiefdoms/kingdoms from his father. The early version of that law is that if you have a single kingdom, the kingdom would be divided between the sons and what happens can be that it will be divided and kingdom seizes to be or co-rulership (this would depend on brothers relation). A later version would prevent kingdoms to be divided, a son is chosen to be "over-king" over his brothers and realm does not split. The later version should be a goal most of these kings would have in their mind for succesion. The law should not ba able to create before 900.

Fourth theres a system where kingdoms automaticly are created. If you play Danmark for exsample, and take enough lands of Norway to create the kingdom title. But you die and one of your several sons creates and becomes king of Norway. I would like this with duchies, plus the more duchies and sons you have the more titles you create.

And there should be regional laws like Tinget in each de jure duchie

On each ting/duchie there can be a different law and chiefdans can decide to act together. Chose king/chief, act against liege, raid together, build together (gudehov, forts ect), preform religious activitives.
Have laws like for tax, punishment for criminalities, succesion, forbid other faiths and so on.

Not sure if you can do all this, some of this I mention know is unacheivable. But some of i'm sure you might with the skalds, decendant of gods, zealots, automaticly create kingdom on succesion. I do not have much enoug to say about other pagans, but I would have looked on how they would inherrit, how they govern, what made cultures (same culture group) different, how they practice faith.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

A other thing i like point out with counquest is that it should have the chiefdans chased of the land not keeping them since the counquer would rather take it for himself or place his loyal man there. Subjugation would work better if target holds more counties..

 

[R'hllor]

I hope you don't focus on the norse religion too much, since they already receive much more love than any other pagans... Did you read my previous comment about gods btw?

For the burials, burying people under mounds of rocks and soil with their weapons, jewelry and other objects was common especially in Finland, but also in other places around the Baltic. The bodies were sometimes also burned. In Estonia, there are also mass graves where the ashes of many people are spread among rocks. These are speculated to be family graves. Finnic tribes around the Baltic also sometimes practiced burning boat burials, where the body was either burned in a large fire with the boat on top or the boat was left to drift away on water while it burned. Burials on water were practiced in places where the water would carry the boat to the north, since that's where Tuonela (afterlife) was thought to be located. I'm sure there were also other customs with other people.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Norsemen should have the option to insult a man they don't like, if this insult goes unpunished the person who where insulted should gain a negative opinion. As for holmgard they the winner should gain som coin of the defeated man, the insulter should gain smaller reward than the offender.

 

[Harald Fairhair]

Viking Raiders would somethimes build somthing called longport (raidbase), sometimes these longports would become permament base (like Dublin for an exsample). Maybe band of raiders (all pagans) could use this?

 

[bontanel]

You should contact what's left of the VIET team. Take some inspiration or bring back some of their stuff.

 

[vyshan]

I'd like to (again) correct you a bit. Akka and Väinämöinen are correct in your current plan, but others should be changed.

Starting with the god of war: according to the list of Finnish "false" gods by Mikael Agricola from the 16th century, he was called Turisas (also the name of an excellent Finnish band).

Perkele should be called Ukko, and he, as the god of rain and harvest could be linked to trade and prosperity. As Ukko is probably the most important Finnish god, and the husband of Akka, he most definitely needs to be here.

God of peace is the most difficult to find. Haltija isn't good, because that means elf in Finnish and there were lots of different elves in Finnish stories. For now, the best I could find for that role is Ilmarinen, who, according to Mikael Agricola again, "made peace and weather / and helped travellers forward". He is also known for being a god of wind and weather, as well as being a blacksmith in the national epic Kalevala. That one small quote is so far the only statement I could find that indicates him having something to do with peace, but there wasn't really any peace god and Ilmarinen has his nice relationship Väinämöinen, so he probably is the best choice for now.

Alright. That has been changed.

Zealots would try to convert provinces. There are few exsample of norsemen trying to convert people like Håkon Jarl of Norway, he tore down churches on Vestlandet and began anti-christian campain. Or Torgest of Dublin, he were able to convert some few person to pagan faith.

Zealots might though over all prostlyization wasn't really a thing for the pagan faiths. What I want to add for the pagans is that they will get the option of sending your court chaplin out to provinces to perform sacrifices for them. mechanically the idea is for it to work a lot like the Muslim giving of charity court chaplin ability. perhaps a rare option if the court Chaplin is Zealous, they might convince others to follow your pagan faith.

I am not sure if that will be in 0.1 which I want to get out this weekend, but this addition for pagan court chaplins is something I want to add.

And there is the tribal system, I personally don't think it's perfect. There should be two different types of holding and goverment type, one more primitiv like the sami, and on farms wich chiefdans like norse lived in with far more advantages. Able to build more farms on the counties he is in controll of and even but minor chiefs to hold them, upgrade them to somthings like cities, temple and later castles. But farms should be able to easly be destroyd (unless its the last holding). A other thing about tribal people like sami is that they did not have social structure to form kingdoms, they should be restricted to high chiefdoms untill their laws become more sofisticated. (farms would be more historic holdings than castles since exsample norway did not have a castle untill late-1100)

Don't think I am going to be touching the tribal system atm. I do agree it should use some improvements. But if I ever work on that it will be much further down the road.

Wery normal thing to do as a chiefdan is to claim you have ancestours back to the gods or heroes. Gives more prestige or opinion. If you have a norse skald he should be able to fabricate your way back to the gods. The skald should be able to create poems that would increase your prestige or lower it as an insult.

I do want to do more with honarary titles, so that if you have an honorary title then you can do things like composing epic poems. This will go for all pagans, and maybe non-pagans.

Won't be at first, as I got a bunch of other things to work on and add first, but it is a goal for something down the road.

Norse succession could have been better worked on.

First of we have that a man can inherrit a chiefs title if he's married to his daughter and the chief has no sons.

Second sons of a chiefdan should inherrit the holdings he have, but a other King/Jarl could be chosen. But this could be a law where either chiefs are the ones who decides who will be the next ruler or king/petty king choses alone the heir before death. The next ruler will be a son unless theres no sons to chose from, the neares relative is likely chosen, a son-in-law, brother, uncel, cousin.

Third norse law says each sons shall have equall land and chiefdoms/kingdoms from his father. The early version of that law is that if you have a single kingdom, the kingdom would be divided between the sons and what happens can be that it will be divided and kingdom seizes to be or co-rulership (this would depend on brothers relation). A later version would prevent kingdoms to be divided, a son is chosen to be "over-king" over his brothers and realm does not split. The later version should be a goal most of these kings would have in their mind for succesion. The law should not ba able to create before 900.

Fourth theres a system where kingdoms automaticly are created. If you play Danmark for exsample, and take enough lands of Norway to create the kingdom title. But you die and one of your several sons creates and becomes king of Norway. I would like this with duchies, plus the more duchies and sons you have the more titles you create.

And there should be regional laws like Tinget in each de jure duchie

On each ting/duchie there can be a different law and chiefdans can decide to act together. Chose king/chief, act against liege, raid together, build together (gudehov, forts ect), preform religious activitives.
Have laws like for tax, punishment for criminalities, succesion, forbid other faiths and so on.

Not sure if you can do all this, some of this I mention know is unacheivable. But some of i'm sure you might with the skalds, decendant of gods, zealots, automaticly create kingdom on succesion. I do not have much enoug to say about other pagans, but I would have looked on how they would inherrit, how they govern, what made cultures (same culture group) different, how they practice faith.

I might add some things, of course most of my focus is going to be non-norse pagans. As I want to improve them. I will see if I can add a tribal elective for tribes if that isn't already an option.

I should like to stress the importance of regionalism. Perhaps there could be certain pantheon variations based on the cultures (most variedly probably amongst Finnic pagans, but after all, to an extent amongst Slavs at least as well).

I do want to incorproate this into the pagan faiths. That way it helps reflect the difference in regions that they have. Since there really isn't anything standardized about the various pagan faiths, particularly during this time period.

I hope you don't focus on the norse religion too much, since they already receive much more love than any other pagans... Did you read my previous comment about gods btw?

I am not, they will get additional flavor with everyone else(ie they get cultural sacrifices just like everyone else) but the whole submod started out because non-norse were bland. So my focus is on the other faiths more so then the norse.

For the burials, burying people under mounds of rocks and soil with their weapons, jewelry and other objects was common especially in Finland, but also in other places around the Baltic. The bodies were sometimes also burned. In Estonia, there are also mass graves where the ashes of many people are spread among rocks. These are speculated to be family graves. Finnic tribes around the Baltic also sometimes practiced burning boat burials, where the body was either burned in a large fire with the boat on top or the boat was left to drift away on water while it burned. Burials on water were practiced in places where the water would carry the boat to the north, since that's where Tuonela (afterlife) was thought to be located. I'm sure there were also other customs with other people.

Thanks. I will see about adding that for funeral events.

Norsemen should have the option to insult a man they don't like, if this insult goes unpunished the person who where insulted should gain a negative opinion. As for holmgard they the winner should gain som coin of the defeated man, the insulter should gain smaller reward than the offender.

Maybe. I will look into it.

Viking Raiders would somethimes build somthing called longport (raidbase), sometimes these longports would become permament base (like Dublin for an exsample). Maybe band of raiders (all pagans) could use this?

Nah, that would just repersent your country province IMO.

 

[vyshan]

Anyways here is what should be in version 0.1; which hopefully will be out this weekend.

• General offerings for all
• Cultural offerings for Finnish, Norse, Slavic, and Baltic Faiths
• Funeral events for the Norse, and hopefully the other 3 faiths but the Norse will be in for 0.1
• Balwans for the Slavic faith: build an idol to 9 different deities. Currently list of deities you can build a balwan for are Perun, Mokosh, Veles, Jarilo, Svarog, Svetovid, Dazhbog, Lada, and Kresnik. ATM it gives you a prestige boost and the same bonuses that the raised runestone. Not as complicated as the runestone events atm, but they likely will get expanded on later on.