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Hey Erilaz, I've been some thinking on the different societies that should be available to the Norse.

A while back you asked for some recommendations, and I am not sure you got any, so I'll put some down here, assuming you are still interested.

*SNIP*

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So these are some rough outlines on what some societies could look like. I can go into much more detail for any of them, and provide a lot more text as needed.

Hey Mech!

Those are some really nice suggestions.

I have a few concerns with creating societies: firstly, often devotion to specific gods (in the sagas) tends to be a personal matter rather than something like a cult. At least from what I've read (e.g. Hrafnkell freysgoði); at a stretch perhaps it takes the form of a very small, close knit fellowship of friends or blood-brothers. Secondly, I'm a bit torn when it comes to strengthening stereotypical portrayal of Norse religion, so it needs to be subtle and well documented (refer to my first concern; I doubt we can find proof of any significant pan-Norse societies).

In theory, I suppose there could be a society for each major god, but I'm not sure the general structure of societies, the way they work now, is fitting for Norse devotion at all; it's way too decentralised for something like that I think. Perhaps if societies were smaller scale, like within certain geographical areas... I'm not sure.

In any case, my last concern right now is that I don't have time to look into it! I'm working on my master's thesis at the moment, so spare time for stuff like this is very limited.
 
Hey Mech!

Those are some really nice suggestions.

I have a few concerns with creating societies: firstly, often devotion to specific gods (in the sagas) tends to be a personal matter rather than something like a cult. At least from what I've read (e.g. Hrafnkell freysgoði); at a stretch perhaps it takes the form of a very small, close knit fellowship of friends or blood-brothers. Secondly, I'm a bit torn when it comes to strengthening stereotypical portrayal of Norse religion, so it needs to be subtle and well documented (refer to my first concern; I doubt we can find proof of any significant pan-Norse societies).



Yeah, the cults I am talking about are not well-attested in the Sagas, or when they are it is often accidental. That being due to the Christians who wrote the Sagas not being interested in how the pagan religion was practiced or organized.

However in writings that pre-date the Sagas about or related to Norse Society and other older Germanic Societies there is evidence for organizations which could be described as a mix of Cult, Mannderbunds and Comitatus.

For instance in Tacitus' Germania he describes ritualistic sacrifices to a goddess via drowning. He also discusses a people known as the Harii who paint themselves in black and do night raids, which is theorized to be a ritual society of young male warriors within other tribes potentially dedicated to Odin.

This is an idea that as been attached to the wolf-warriors of Odin, related to a theory Tolkein wrote about, that at the time of the Viking age a "Odinic Death Cult" had arisen and supplanted an earlier fertility-based cult.

The Fertility of Cult at Heorot is a theory pieced together from studying the Beowulf/Kraki story. I am not sure where it stands with recent scholarship but at minimum it was endorsed by Tolkien.

From mostly Roman-Germanic sources, as outlined in Herwig Wolfram's The Roman Empire and Its Germanic Peoples, we find Early Germanic pagans with religions still recogonizable as Germanic, belonging to ritualized and fictionalized communities of decent with a King acting as High Priest. These communities of descent also act as religious cults and the descent is generally seen as belonging to a God, Monster, or Hero. In any case it makes the veneration of a god not a personal matter, but a family/clan/tribal one.

Adam of Bremen wrote about the Nine animal Sacrifices including humans that occurred every Nine years at the Temple of Uppsala. It was not an eye-witness account, instead he was told of it from someone else, however details about the pagan statues and some of the rites align with other information about the germanic pagan religion.

Odin's hanging ritual is also given credence in Gautrek's Saga where he demands Starkaðr sacrifice his king by hanging.

A recent archaeological dig-site has given some level of credence to the idea of Shield-Maidens. Not exactly a slam dunk, but its more then we had previously, not to mention CK2 already lets women be Shield-Maidens.

Focusing on the Beowulf/Bjarki angle and the phrase 'Berserk', a case can also, and has been, made for there being a bear-cult not that dissimilar from the wolf cult, but with some obvious.. difference.


As always when dealing with the religion of the Germanic people we are forced to deal with scraps. But, the scraps do exist and while I would not advocate going too fantastical, I think you'll probably find better sources for most of my suggestions than most others. And, ya know, it's a game. =)
 
Yeah, there's plenty of little hints about Germanic and Norse religion, but about the various cults and practises you mention, I still think the way societies work in CK2 is unsuitable for them. The fertility cult (as exemplified by the Nerthus worship mentioned by Tacitus, which is probably related to Njord, Frey, and Freyja) seems more like an established religion in this specific region, and the same goes for the Uppsala sacrifices, it doesn't resemble what we'd have in the societies, but rather actual religions or heresies if you like.

The small "Männerbünde" and the like would not really work either, I think, since these seem to be closely linked to the tribes in question (EDIT: or functioned more like a félag, a small fellowship, or as a mercenary company; e.g. the Jomsvikings) rather than big pan-Germanic societies (as in societies where rulers or people of high birth from different parts of the Norse world band together over long distances without any family ties). I doubt that a goði in Iceland dedicated to Frey would be in contact with someone from Denmark that is likewise dedicated to Frey (unless they are in some other way acquainted, through trade or blood ties for example, but then their main tie is still not their devotion to Frey).
 
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You're absolutely right. But a lot of the issue we run into is CK2 mechanics.

We run into a situation where an Odin Cult or Fertility Cult exists somewhere between heresy and regional flavor of a larger pan-germanic religion. And yes the comitatus's and communities of descent don't make sense on a pan-germanic scale. But my opinion is the closest you can get to the reality is via the Societies.

Moreover, the argument can made that in a Reformed Germanic Pagan faith, these institutions could find universal support and connection. That's half the point of the religion being reformed in the first place...
 
Actually I wouldn't mind it if we're talking the reformed faith. The thing is, though, I don't see it as my mission with NHO to make "what if"-scenarios. While that'd add "immersion" if done right, I'm more interested in creating immersion by adjusting elements that are flawed geographically, linguistically and historically, as well as adding more depth to neglected areas (such as Iceland). While playing with the possiblities of a reformed Norse faith might be interesting, that's not my primary objective. As a matter of fact, I think something like the Ascent of the Hrafn mod (which has apparently been made compatible with HIP) does that, and our overlap is pretty minimal (though I'd recommend removing the "00_cultures" file from that mod, not sure why it would use that, and it messes up the names etc. EDIT: Which he's already done now).
 
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Yeah, Ascent of Hrafn is pretty fun. But it's also a little bit out there. I just thought you could do better. But maybe better is nothing at all.

I respect your decision and will stop pestering you. Good mod.
 
Yeah, Ascent of Hrafn is pretty fun. But it's also a little bit out there. I just thought you could do better. But maybe better is nothing at all.

I respect your decision and will stop pestering you. Good mod.

Cheers! Hey, sometimes less is more ;)

For times when I may have more time to fiddle with new aspects of CK2 modding, I'll try to think of something I can use the society mechanics for.
 
Hi, I just installed the mod and I'm wondering if there are any new melting pot cultures with the Norse or if there are any plans to add them?

One of the main aims of the submod, originally, was to add the Anglo-Danish melting pot. This was subsequently done in a similar way in HIP itself.

Right now, the submod doesn't add any new melting pots, though it does tweak them a bit.

At one point, I had a melting pot for a "Scots" culture (Anglophone Lowland Scottish). It had its merits, so I might try to reintroduce it if I get the time.
 
About societies
Archeology shows that in 900 ad the norse cults where divided between those who worshipped the Æsir (mainly warlike), Vanir (mainly fertility) and both. Those who worshipped the Æsir or Vanir as main figures in their cult they did not exclude the other completly, it was more about what they laid weight on. Based on archeology Æsir cult was practiced in Northern Norway, Gautland, Skåne and Jylland, Vanir in East and Shouthern Norway, while the practice of both was found in Svearike, Western Norway, Trøndelag, the Danish isles and Sliesvig. If one should make societies it should perhaps be divided in these three.

I have a few concerns with creating societies: firstly, often devotion to specific gods (in the sagas) tends to be a personal matter rather than something like a cult
If you play as Hindu you are able to chose a pantheon to worship if I am correct, maybe it can be used to make more dept in norse religion?
 
Is the 27-05 version fully compatible with Hydra6?

I'll have a look through tomorrow and see what may need patching.

I expect the "Call to Arms" part may need an update because of some changes to EMF. Perhaps a few of the undocumented SWMH changes may need to be included in some files as well, but otherwise there shouldn't be anything that could break compatibility.
 
Here's the update for the three parts that needed it for full compatibility with Hydra6:

NHO Base

Features:
- Reworked Norse character and dynasty names as well as title and province/holding localisation using standard Old Norse (Old Icelandic).
- Reworked names and localisation for all Norse-derived cultures.
- Tweaked Norse culture conversion.
- New or tweaked names and localisation for neighbouring cultures (Celtic, Balto-Slavic, and Finno-Ugric), including an effort to replace all remaining "High Chiefs".
- Other minor changes that enhance the experience when playing within the Norse sphere of influence.

Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.1, HIP Hydra6 (SWMH or MiniSWMH required)

Download:
Direct
(23-06-18)



NHO Icelandic Republic

Features:
- Iceland as a republic with all the lawspeakers, important chieftains, and major clans of the age, several saga figures, and a complete line of Bishops for both of the Icelandic dioceses.
- Important families of the Faeroe Islands around the time of conversion to Christianity and an extra holding to make the struggles for/against conversion and integration into the Norwegian Kingdom more interesting; this holding later being replaced by the diocese of the Islands.
- Added modifiers to portray the pre-colonisation (no levies), the Landnám, and the climate.

Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.1, HIP Hydra6 (SWMH or MiniSWMH required), NHO Base

Download:
Direct
(23-06-18)



Call to Arms

Features:
Any independent ruler, with at least one higher than baron tier vassal, that becomes primary participant in a war will have to call vassals to arms, but when at peace or a secondary participant only, the ruler will get the possibility to raise liege levies once more
NOTE:
- I've created this with inspiration, and some base code, from this mod.
- Many triggers for factions and decisions have been modified to take into account the drop in the liege's perceived power when he no longer has direct control of his vassals' levies.
- Be aware that this feature is very much experimental and will change your experience significantly.


Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.1, HIP Hydra6 (EMF required)

Download:
Direct
(23-06-18)
 
If you play as Hindu you are able to chose a pantheon to worship if I am correct, maybe it can be used to make more dept in norse religion?

That's a really good tip! I think that this could be a better alternative than societies. You can choose your branch (perhaps from the three you listed above: Æsir, Vanir, or balanced), and you can also choose a patron deity. From there one could probably add events and other stuff for depth.
 
Here's a new update.

Changelog:
Base:
- Revision of Norse and Scandinavian character titles.
- Other minor changes.

Icelandic Republic:
- The Icelandic Republic is now king-tier, which solves an issue with localisation.
Map Changes:
- Opened up the passes between Ringerike and Sygnafylke.
The Articles of the Barons:
- Initial release.

I've had another look at the character titles where I found the need to make a few changes. Specifically, among other things, there's now even more differences between pagan Norse and non-pagan Norse titles, e.g. "Höfðingi" vs. "Herra", etc.

I also removed the unpassable terrain between Ringerike and Sygnafylke, which doesn't make sense to have since there are several passes between these areas.

Lastly, I added a new tweak: "The Articles of the Barons", which removes the baron-tier border gore reduction (i.e. disables the mechanic that automatically cleans up when baronies are held by someone outside of the province-holder's realm). This, I think broke immersion for no real reason (other than aesthetics?). See this thread for a discussion. I hope the HIP team makes an option to disable this via the "rules", but until then I thought they wouldn't mind me putting up this little tweak for people that think like I do.

NHO Base

Features:
- Reworked Norse character and dynasty names as well as title and province/holding localisation using standard Old Norse (Old Icelandic).
- Reworked names and localisation for all Norse-derived cultures.
- Tweaked Norse culture conversion.
- New or tweaked names and localisation for neighbouring cultures (Celtic, Balto-Slavic, and Finno-Ugric), including an effort to replace all remaining "High Chiefs".
- Other minor changes that enhance the experience when playing within the Norse sphere of influence.

Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.2, HIP Hydra6 (SWMH or MiniSWMH required)

Download:
Direct
(09-07-18)



NHO Icelandic Republic

Features:
- Iceland as a republic with all the lawspeakers, important chieftains, and major clans of the age, several saga figures, and a complete line of Bishops for both of the Icelandic dioceses.
- Important families of the Faeroe Islands around the time of conversion to Christianity and an extra holding to make the struggles for/against conversion and integration into the Norwegian Kingdom more interesting; this holding later being replaced by the diocese of the Islands.
- Added modifiers to portray the pre-colonisation (no levies), the Landnám, and the climate.

Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.2, HIP Hydra6 (SWMH or MiniSWMH required), NHO Base

Download:
Direct
(09-07-18)



NHO Map Changes

Features:
- Redrawn borders that give York and London access to the sea.
- Opened up several passes through the Norwegian mountain terrain.

Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.2, HIP Hydra6 (SWMH or MiniSWMH required) NOTE: Not compatible with Gaea (Updated Map).

Download:
Direct
(09-07-18)



The Articles of the Barons

Features:
Removes the baron-tier border gore reduction. See here for details.

Requirements:
CK2 2.8.3.2, HIP Hydra6 (EMF required)

Download:
Direct
(09-07-18)
 

I saw it, and those are things that I could potentially correct in NHO, but I'd have to read up on it. My knowledge on the particular history and geography of those areas isn't terribly great - who owned what, when, etc. That's also the reason that I've, for now, refrained from touching much of the early distribution of land in Norway and other places (as suggested by @Harald Fairhair for example, in regards to the 867 starting distribution).

It's pretty low priority right now (mostly because I simply don't have much time), but if you can provide me with some sources/quotations from sources, I'd gladly look into it and perhaps make the necessary changes.
 
I saw it, and those are things that I could potentially correct in NHO, but I'd have to read up on it. My knowledge on the particular history and geography of those areas isn't terribly great - who owned what, when, etc. That's also the reason that I've, for now, refrained from touching much of the early distribution of land in Norway and other places (as suggested by @Harald Fairhair for example, in regards to the 867 starting distribution).

It's pretty low priority right now (mostly because I simply don't have much time), but if you can provide me with some sources/quotations from sources, I'd gladly look into it and perhaps make the necessary changes.
http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Olav_den_Helliges_saga

Look at 104., 106. and 123. for the relevant information.
 
So, lately I've been pondering how to proceed with a revision of the Scandinavian culture split, and it's something that I really want to do, but it acquires a lot of work. I want to hear if any of you guys have opinions on this.

I've started working on the late Scandinavian languages, mostly character titles for now, but these languages (Old Danish and Old Swedish especially) need to appear later than the current split; that is, around 1150 rather than 950. Ideally the split would look something like this (year indicates when they should slowly start to appear - also, they are kept together in the early bookmark mostly for gameplay purposes):


Norrœnn: Old Norse (Early Icel. sagas/Reconstructed)

- Danskr: Old East Norse (Runic/Reconstructed) ~ 900

- Dansk: Old Danish (Skånske/Jyske Lov) ~ 1100​

- Svænskr: Old East Norse (Runic/Reconstructed) ~ 900​

- Svænskær: Old Swedish (Västgötalagen/Erikskrönikan) ~ 1100
- Gøzkr: Old East Norse (Runic/Reconstructed) ~ 900

- Gøzkær: Old Swedish (Västgötalagen) ~ 1100
- Gutniscr: Old Gutnish (Gutalagen) ~ 950​

- Norrønn/Norskr: Old Norwegian (Gulatingsloven) ~ 1050​

- Íslenzkr: Old Icelandic (Icel. sagas) ~ 1150​


This is of course in ideal picture, and it would take a very long time to reach it. Therefore, I'll take it in steps, starting by moving the split forward (using the current cultures, but changing localisation, including names, to fit with the later languages, also making this take effect in the history files, so Norse culture will last longer). Only after that will I start working on adding three new, intermediate cultures: Danskr, Svænskr, and Gauzkr, that are all going to use the Old East Norse dialect (which of course is a huge task in itself). Lastly, I'll think about adding a Gutnish culture, but that would be very low priority due to its small impact (even though it would be super cool to have). The Icelandic culture is already present in the files, so that would be easy to implement a use for, though I don't see it as very important as most of the Norse areas in the Atlantic work just fine when they keep the original culture (and language).

It'll take a while before you'll see any of this released (mostly due to being away from home during the summer, and me 'supposed to be' working on my master's thesis), but I thought I'd keep you up to date with my current thoughts.

Now I'm going on a short vacation to Norway (Oslo and Sognefjorden), and I'll see by myself the mountain passes that I opened up in NHO Map Changes. ;)
 
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