[Submod] Heart of Europe, Early Feudal Government and Carolingian Flavor

[Undead Martyr]

So I'm in the middle of adding a few things to Italy, and also touching up on the Normans (since they are relevant to the peninsula).

One of the interesting perks of having a vassal pope is that investiture seems works just fine under Free Investiture- you can literally appoint the Pope's successor and this will override the election, at least so far as my initial tests have. This obviates my intended viceroyalty style hack intended to allow an Emperor to meddle in Papal affairs and makes the Pornocracy even more fitting.

So the general idea is that the Pope is now a duchy rank title, but he also holds the Papal States- a separate, de jure kingdom title with Late (rather than early) Administration, meaning the Pope will have an easier time centralizing and of course gets taxes from his feudal vassals (as will you if you usurp the title.) Petitioning for Charlemagne's crown now targets the holder of Patrimonium Sancti Petri, rather than the Pope per se- a subtle, but vital, distinction, as should a local ruler pull a Tusculani and usurp the Papal "Kingdom" they will not only therefore have full power to appoint popes (as the historical Tusculani did) but also emperors, as well as of course having the vassalized Pope with everything that that implies.

As a further effort I have started an Investiture Controversy Event Chain. This will occur sometime in the 11th century onward if the Pope is either Independent or vassal to a Holy Roman Empire, and subsequently all Imperial or Papal vassals, and all Italian rulers, will declare one way or the other (they could, of course, remain neutral, but where's the fun in that?). This gives them traits, with associated opinion boosts/penalties; notably Ghibellines will gain a bonus to feudal vassal opinion and a penalty to city vassal opinion, while Guelphs get piety, Papal opinion and temple vassal opinion. After 1250 if the HRE has Papal Investiture and has lost any foothold in Italy then the Pope is victorious, and the Papal Patrimonium will cease to be a de jure vassal of the Empire, whereas if the Emperor can keep Free Investiture and assert full power over all of Italy (not just the north, but at the least installing a relative on the Sicilian throne) then they will emerge victorious instead, destroying the Papal Patrimonium and ensuring Imperial domination over Central Italy. Note that the Investiture Controversy is a precondition for the Crusades- unless one of Rome, Constantinople, Aachen (or possibly Toulouse or Lyons?) have fallen to the infidels, a subjugated Papacy will not initiate the Crusades.

Finally I intend to create a Norman Conquest event. Assuming the duchy exists and is held by the Normans in the 11th century, then they will examine the Mediterranean for a non-existing de jure kingdom that is not wholly controlled by a single ruler (say a Sicily fully reconquered by the Byzantines), and choose it as the target for a Norman Conquest. Obviously Sicily will be favored, but if there is no railroading or historical conditions are not matched then they might well target some other region entirely. After choosing a potential target Norman Adventurers will periodically arrive with a duchy-rank adventurer cb, while all normans in the kingdom will gain a conquest CB to reform the kingdom. The conquest will end by 1200 if the kingdom has not been formed or there are no more independent normans in the area, and will end once the kingdom itself is created by a Norman.

 

[ernst_earnest]

So I'm in the middle of adding a few things to Italy, and also touching up on the Normans (since they are relevant to the peninsula).

One of the interesting perks of having a vassal pope is that investiture seems works just fine under Free Investiture- you can literally appoint the Pope's successor and this will override the election, at least so far as my initial tests have. This obviates my intended viceroyalty style hack intended to allow an Emperor to meddle in Papal affairs and makes the Pornocracy even more fitting.

So the general idea is that the Pope is now a duchy rank title, but he also holds the Papal States- a separate, de jure kingdom title with Late (rather than early) Administration, meaning the Pope will have an easier time centralizing and of course gets taxes from his feudal vassals (as will you if you usurp the title.) Petitioning for Charlemagne's crown now targets the holder of Patrimonium Sancti Petri, rather than the Pope per se- a subtle, but vital, distinction, as should a local ruler pull a Tusculani and usurp the Papal "Kingdom" they will not only therefore have full power to appoint popes (as the historical Tusculani did) but also emperors, as well as of course having the vassalized Pope with everything that that implies.

As a further effort I have started an Investiture Controversy Event Chain. This will occur sometime in the 11th century onward if the Pope is either Independent or vassal to a Holy Roman Empire, and subsequently all Imperial or Papal vassals, and all Italian rulers, will declare one way or the other (they could, of course, remain neutral, but where's the fun in that?). This gives them traits, with associated opinion boosts/penalties; notably Ghibellines will gain a bonus to feudal vassal opinion and a penalty to city vassal opinion, while Guelphs get piety, Papal opinion and temple vassal opinion. After 1250 if the HRE has Papal Investiture and has lost any foothold in Italy then the Pope is victorious, and the Papal Patrimonium will cease to be a de jure vassal of the Empire, whereas if the Emperor can keep Free Investiture and assert full power over all of Italy (not just the north, but at the least installing a relative on the Sicilian throne) then they will emerge victorious instead, destroying the Papal Patrimonium and ensuring Imperial domination over Central Italy. Note that the Investiture Controversy is a precondition for the Crusades- unless one of Rome, Constantinople, Aachen (or possibly Toulouse or Lyons?) have fallen to the infidels, a subjugated Papacy will not initiate the Crusades.

Finally I intend to create a Norman Conquest event. Assuming the duchy exists and is held by the Normans in the 11th century, then they will examine the Mediterranean for a non-existing de jure kingdom that is not wholly controlled by a single ruler (say a Sicily fully reconquered by the Byzantines), and choose it as the target for a Norman Conquest. Obviously Sicily will be favored, but if there is no railroading or historical conditions are not matched then they might well target some other region entirely. After choosing a potential target Norman Adventurers will periodically arrive with a duchy-rank adventurer cb, while all normans in the kingdom will gain a conquest CB to reform the kingdom. The conquest will end by 1200 if the kingdom has not been formed or there are no more independent normans in the area, and will end once the kingdom itself is created by a Norman.

I omce tried to implement two event chains regarding the normans: a chain that comes from the fact that the popes considered the kings of sicily as vassals and thus would create conflict. And the option for a powerful norman lord to ally with the HREmperor, the Basileus or the Pope giving special benefits like additional land etc but also making him a vassal. Maybe you can take inspiration from that.

 

[Undead Martyr]

I omce tried to implement two event chains regarding the normans: a chain that comes from the fact that the popes considered the kings of sicily as vassals and thus would create conflict. And the option for a powerful norman lord to ally with the HREmperor, the Basileus or the Pope giving special benefits like additional land etc but also making him a vassal. Maybe you can take inspiration from that.

In game I guess just adding a trait or something (maybe a bloodline once Holy Fury hits) I agree that the Church was essential to the Sicilian Kingdom (there's a quote to the effect that "the kingdom is guarded by three sides by water and on the fourth by the Church").

 

[EmoPro]

This is not out yet? I am eager to try out such interesting mechanics

 

[Undead Martyr]

I've been a bit busy in real life, but I think I might be able to manage a release soon ish, once I add localization it should probably (?) work? The validator doesn't really seem to be working well for me (or rather it's giving a lot more errors).

At this point I think I will hold off on the Norman chain. The Investiture Controversy will also probably not have much (a decision, an initial event, and the "victory" events concluding it).

I also need to add trait icons for the Guelphs, Ghibellines and Investiture.

 

[Erilaz]

Very nice concepts in here!

I'd just like to point out that keeping a tight focus is very nice in terms of being compatible with other submods. Alternatively you can divide your stuff up between different main sections, like e.g. one for early feudal government, one for various event chains, one for additional cultures, etc.

This makes it a lot easier, also, for people that may want one of the features but not another.

I myself am expanding my main scope a bit in NHO, and it is really quite dangerous to go too far beyond your main focus, and way too easy to get carried away, in my experience...

 

[antidualist]

This looks great, one other issue you might want to think about is the kingdoms of aquitaine and Bavaria which at the moment seem to stay on the map far longer than they should (due to Gavelkind). IRL both were subsumed by France and Germany respectively pretty soon after the 867 start and never really achieved full independence again.

My idea for this would be to have the titles be destroyed if their holder is also king of France (for aquitaine) or Germany (for Bavaria) and not allow either to be formed as a seperate kingdom if you hold the French or German kingdom. They would however continue to exist de jure. This would also make the vassals in these regions more rebellious than most at least until they were dejure shifted intp k_France or k_Germany which seems appropriate. On top of this however I would give the rulers of France and Germany respective duchy reconquest cbs over the two kingdoms to represent the fact that both were assigned to the overlordship of France and Germany in the Carolingian succession and to ensure that both kingdoms had an easier time in reconquering any split off vassals.

 

[Toa Kraka]

the kingdoms of aquitaine and Bavaria

See also this discussion:

Relevant FYI:

Due to the way de jure titles also represent 'territorial zones' in this game, it's simply never going to happen that the starting setup for the French region won't include the Kingdom of Aquitaine, even if defunct. In other words, I'm never going to write some code that automatically assimilates Aquitaine into France, and I would never advocate a starting setup where it is not de jure (unless some new title were in its place).

One reason why: Imagine you or the AI or whomever are a Muslim w/ access to multiple de jure king-tier invasion CB types (or anybody that can even participate in a Crusade vs. a heretic, say). Without the French region (minus Burgundy) split into two reasonably-sized chunks (and each one still has very ample holding counts vs. a lot of other de jure kingdoms), a single war can instantly conquer damn near all of Europe (exaggeration, but pretty much).

However:

I have considered things I can do with Aquitaine and Bavaria from the 867 start -- not idly but considered several options over time, but none of them work well or really any better than the currently minimal/zero special mechanics for them currently IMHO.

These titles started more as appointments from father to son, marches of sorts, but of course, once they were created, they did indeed follow fairly regular (for the era and region) succession. Best CK2 approximation law is probably Elective Gavelkind, to which I was actually going to switch the entire Carolingien Realm in 867, but it's a big change to how succession will work in that scenario, so I'll need a lot of time to observe the impact in-game and re-evaluate.

@Toa Kraka has the right idea, however. Look at what actually happened. Then, see if there's a pattern which might be possible to generalize into a mechanic to solve the [pseudo-]problem of these titles sometimes persisting way longer than seems reasonable (allowing for the fact that this is a sandbox game ultimately, and there are totally plausible circumstances which would lead to the titles persisting as part of independent polities).

Unfortunately, a mechanic to try and provide a way for this type of 'succession law evolution' is seriously a bigger project than it sounds.

Though, if it were created, it'd be presumably limited to western and central europe (+ maybe scandinavia) and intended to help along the general arc of [possibly elective] gavelkind -> feudal elective -> primogeniture.

It'd be neato; promote historical outcomes; provide a dynamic way to try and manage your successions such that you can upgrade succession laws sooner than otherwise possible (as the primogeniture assigned to 1066 France is meant to represent, e.g., although in this era, the retrospective difference between feudal elective and primogeniture is somewhat circumstantial) and under more reasonable conditions than the standard way of changing them; and would almost necessarily come along with a full, other set of mechanics for attempting to crown / designate your heir [direct progeny, presumably eldest if trying to bring about an eventual primogeniture arc] in the years before your own death (and presumably something to confirm/renew that status if you keep on living and a lot changes) to your feudal elective titles.

Still, I've got way lower hanging and more satisfying fruit on my list of stuff to do as yet.

 

[antidualist]

See also this discussion:

Yes I remember that, I get zijistark's position re not having them fold in to France and Germany dejure but still think that they should be destroyed defacto on inheritance (perhaps with a slight time delay, so not before say 900). This combined with a special subjugation style cb for France and Germany that would let them exert some defacto control if . It also has the nice side effect of reflecting the fact that Aquitaine was significantly more likely to ignore or revolt against the kings of france than other more integrated areas during the period (of course if things go historically Bavaria will show this behaviour less as it will be dejure part of the HRE.

 

[Undead Martyr]

RE: Bavaria and Aquitaine:
Part of the Majesty feature is giving a potential Duchy conquest CB for "great kings" into nearby/"naturally subject" locations (eg Lombardy into Sicily and Provence, France into Lotharingia and Aquitaine, Germany into Wendland and Bavaria etc) and I don't really intend to expand upon this necessarily otherwise I'd be essentially doubling up on CBs for everyone (I might allow for a "claim the Crown of Aquitaine/Bavaria" CB for a King of France/Germany to just straight up claim the kingdom title itself as a separate feature up to 200 years or so from 867, given the crowns are supposed to be a son's appanage rather than a strictly "independent" realm), as IMHO had an independent Aquitaine or Bavaria lasted long enough that they eventually switched to a late-feudal government (this being representative of the shift away from strongman/great person rule to a more bureaucratic system concerned with de jure rights and cohesive territorial jurisdiction) then it would not be especially fair to make a specific exception for that case (why should a 13th century France, which lost control over Aquitaine centuries ago, have more right to claim the breakaway kingdom than, say, Leon has over Portugal?). My preference is to make systems as general as possible and keep specific exemptions and exceptions to a minimum. To that regards it would be better to make changes to the core war mechanics or introduce other systems to model the attempts at asserting control over peripheral regions as part of an ongoing centralization.

I am strongly considering switching the Carolingian kingdoms to Elective Gavelkind, and having an event for the kingdoms to be "merged" is also something sensible and fairly easily added as an on action event. How to have succession laws adapt more generally... is an issue, I have tentatively put some thought into hacking an "interregnum" (see the Rose and the Lily project for the idea) with an immortal placeholder ruler or something but that's probably not going to be in the initial release. My initial thought is some sort of "Decline of the Carolingians" event which switches to either Gavelkind or Elective.

I have not done any work yet and probably won't this week, but there has been a bit of a problem- investiture is glitched, as in absent, at this point, I suspect it has to do with the same reason why the Pope is "technically" appointed under a Free Investiture system, namely that the fact that the "Patrimonium" is his primary title means that he's technically a vassal king bishop and only incidentally the Pope. If this is the case it complicates matters- I might need to revert the Pope back to King-tier, and/or disable the Papal Patrimonium until the Investiture Controversy or something (but this might mean that the happy ability to just appoint a vassal pope is no longer the case...)

 

[antidualist]

RE: Bavaria and Aquitaine:
Part of the Majesty feature is giving a potential Duchy conquest CB for "great kings" into nearby/"naturally subject" locations (eg Lombardy into Sicily and Provence, France into Lotharingia and Aquitaine, Germany into Wendland and Bavaria etc) and I don't really intend to expand upon this necessarily otherwise I'd be essentially doubling up on CBs for everyone (I might allow for a "claim the Crown of Aquitaine/Bavaria" CB for a King of France/Germany to just straight up claim the kingdom title itself as a separate feature up to 200 years or so from 867, given the crowns are supposed to be a son's appanage rather than a strictly "independent" realm), as IMHO had an independent Aquitaine or Bavaria lasted long enough that they eventually switched to a late-feudal government (this being representative of the shift away from strongman/great person rule to a more bureaucratic system concerned with de jure rights and cohesive territorial jurisdiction) then it would not be especially fair to make a specific exception for that case (why should a 13th century France, which lost control over Aquitaine centuries ago, have more right to claim the breakaway kingdom than, say, Leon has over Portugal?). My preference is to make systems as general as possible and keep specific exemptions and exceptions to a minimum. To that regards it would be better to make changes to the core war mechanics or introduce other systems to model the attempts at asserting control over peripheral regions as part of an ongoing centralization.

I am strongly considering switching the Carolingian kingdoms to Elective Gavelkind, and having an event for the kingdoms to be "merged" is also something sensible and fairly easily added as an on action event. How to have succession laws adapt more generally... is an issue, I have tentatively put some thought into hacking an "interregnum" (see the Rose and the Lily project for the idea) with an immortal placeholder ruler or something but that's probably not going to be in the initial release. My initial thought is some sort of "Decline of the Carolingians" event which switches to either Gavelkind or Elective.

I have not done any work yet and probably won't this week, but there has been a bit of a problem- investiture is glitched, as in absent, at this point, I suspect it has to do with the same reason why the Pope is "technically" appointed under a Free Investiture system, namely that the fact that the "Patrimonium" is his primary title means that he's technically a vassal king bishop and only incidentally the Pope. If this is the case it complicates matters- I might need to revert the Pope back to King-tier, and/or disable the Papal Patrimonium until the Investiture Controversy or something (but this might mean that the happy ability to just appoint a vassal pope is no longer the case...)

This sounds good although it depends what you mean by "merged" if you mean de jure assimilated quickly then I'm not so keen for the reasons outlined in zij's previous discussion if otoh you mean the kingdom title get's destroyed then I think that is a sensible move and yes having the control of the crown's be tied to an early feudal government probably also makes sense (after all if France can't dejure drift most of Aquitaine into it's orbit within a couple of hundred years it should find it more difficult to do so later on.

 

[Undead Martyr]

This sounds good although it depends what you mean by "merged" if you mean de jure assimilated quickly then I'm not so keen for the reasons outlined in zij's previous discussion if otoh you mean the kingdom title get's destroyed then I think that is a sensible move and yes having the control of the crown's be tied to an early feudal government probably also makes sense (after all if France can't dejure drift most of Aquitaine into it's orbit within a couple of hundred years it should find it more difficult to do so later on.

The former, yes, the title would be destroyed on inheritance.

 

[antidualist]

The former, yes, the title would be destroyed on inheritance.

Thanks, really looking forward to this by the way as the early time period in western Europe is one area where HIP is a bit lacking.

 

[Undead Martyr]

So I'm trying to get back into modding this, my main issue is that the Papacy is borked from my attempts and TBH it's frustrating enough that I just want to replace all the current files with vanilla HIP files. Right now the Papal succession is open investiture despite the College of Cardinals still working and me erasing the Patrimonium of St Peter... no friggin clue what's going on.
Also decisions are being a PITA to function.

 

[MechTheDane]

I hope you are able to figure it out. I'd really like to see your work included in the main HIP mod pack.

 

[Undead Martyr]

I might end up just restarting this after the update- it's what I did initially (the whole majesty thing was something I coded more than a year ago).

In the meantime-
firstly I want to consider how exactly to model the transition from gavelkind elective to feudal elective (or gavelkind, for vassals?) to primogeniture. I figure I could tie this into the Majesty system somehow- maybe have an event fire when the Carolingians are deposed (in Christianity) or the faith reformed/christianity adopted (in pagan areas) to switch to feudal elective, then have a decision under that system available a certain majesty+crown authority level to "crown your desired heir" which gives them a trait boosting prestige/diplomacy and a one off boost to starting majesty on succession? Then maybe after a certain number of these (say six in a row) and a certain level of majesty/tech level+crown authority (among other things) you can take a decision to switch straight to primogeniture as an independent king.

I'm also considering adding a unique Norman government type for Sicily, or at the very least letting them take a decision to adopt Late Administration, primogeniture and centralize a level after taking Sicily (call it "Adopt Sicilian Bureaucracy" and require owning all of the island), and also maybe a bloodline trait to boost Muslim opinion plus also a "Sicilian Muslim" mercenary company a la the Varangians to represent the Hohenstaufen's Muslim retainers.

Add to that that I think I want to prevent Early Feudalism from applying outside of European Christians and Pagans (ie no early feudals in India or West Africa, or Armenia maybe?) but I'm not wholly commited to that, and TBH I mainly want to limit the system to the "Carolingian" area/Western Europe to keep a tighter focus. Not sure how eg Georgia operated but I think it was rather distinct from Germany, France, Lombardy etc.

 

[Sunbro BigBoss]

I really like the concept of majesty. Anything that makes the different regions and eras of the game feel/play actually different from each other is such a breath of fresh air.

 

[Okdokiecell]

I might end up just restarting this after the update- it's what I did initially (the whole majesty thing was something I coded more than a year ago).

In the meantime-
firstly I want to consider how exactly to model the transition from gavelkind elective to feudal elective (or gavelkind, for vassals?) to primogeniture. I figure I could tie this into the Majesty system somehow- maybe have an event fire when the Carolingians are deposed (in Christianity) or the faith reformed/christianity adopted (in pagan areas) to switch to feudal elective, then have a decision under that system available a certain majesty+crown authority level to "crown your desired heir" which gives them a trait boosting prestige/diplomacy and a one off boost to starting majesty on succession? Then maybe after a certain number of these (say six in a row) and a certain level of majesty/tech level+crown authority (among other things) you can take a decision to switch straight to primogeniture as an independent king.

I'm also considering adding a unique Norman government type for Sicily, or at the very least letting them take a decision to adopt Late Administration, primogeniture and centralize a level after taking Sicily (call it "Adopt Sicilian Bureaucracy" and require owning all of the island), and also maybe a bloodline trait to boost Muslim opinion plus also a "Sicilian Muslim" mercenary company a la the Varangians to represent the Hohenstaufen's Muslim retainers.

Add to that that I think I want to prevent Early Feudalism from applying outside of European Christians and Pagans (ie no early feudals in India or West Africa, or Armenia maybe?) but I'm not wholly commited to that, and TBH I mainly want to limit the system to the "Carolingian" area/Western Europe to keep a tighter focus. Not sure how eg Georgia operated but I think it was rather distinct from Germany, France, Lombardy etc.

Has there been any progress since December, or is this a dead project.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Has there been any progress since December, or is this a dead project.

Dead for now, I've been rather busy and not come back to CK2 for a while.