[Submod] Expanded Trade (updated March 20th)

[myrt]

Fixed some bugs and made some tweaks:
- You can now actually build trade route offices
- Republics can no longer builds the "Inland trade post"-building anywhere
- Building overseas trade posts is now even cheaper
- Readjusted some building prices

Surprised no one noticed that the building was defunct, but with that out of the way, I don't think there are any major problems left

 

[Amgot]

Can you update the first post of this thread with the updated file? I prefer not to install my mods through Steam.

 

[myrt]

Can you update the first post of this thread with the updated file? I prefer not to install my mods through Steam.

I've already done that

 

[myrt]

That's crazy, you'd think something so simple would be.. Simple. But the CK2 engine really feels primitive. I do some modding from time to time and it gives me a fucking headache. Good job on removing it still, I am using the mod now to play Novgorod Republic and having fun. I have only a few questions.

Do you plan to add any routes through the Balkans? modern day Greece, Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia etc are all empty. I would assume this isn't really the case because of Dubrovnik/Ragusa republic right? Or are you going purely after 100% documented historical routes? The document of Ban Kulin of Bosnia from the 11th century is written to Ragusa Republic discussing trade and permission to trade freely. So there's a hint.

Do you also plan to add any routes in Scotland/Ireland/Scandinavia etc?

I haven't dug into sources, so this is just a recommendation for a direction to look into, but how about the Via Egnatia? I suspect it's at least as valid as many of the other overland routes you've incorporated and it'd put Thessaloniki and Dyrrachium on a route, which they probably should be. As for Ragusa, their primary overland trade was with the mines in Bosnia and Serbia and you're quite right that it wasn't very developed until the 14th century, so I'd say that's optional. (Personally, I love playing as the republic and would appreciate the connection, but that's hardly a strong argument, lol.)

After doing some more reading, I think I'll expand the trade network in Greece and eastern Europe once I'm home next week.

I also noticed I've written "Sudmod" in the title. I'll look into that, I guess

 

[DukeofKiewit]

Hi,
Like stated before, an l3t compatible version would be awesome, but not really urgent.
I was wondering though why you put a copy of the entire Defines.lua file in instead of just those 3-4 lines you edited?

 

[myrt]

Hi,
Like stated before, an l3t compatible version would be awesome, but not really urgent.
I was wondering though why you put a copy of the entire Defines.lua file in instead of just those 3-4 lines you edited?

Only way to edit the defines.lua-file is to edit the whole thing, as far as I know. I'll consider compatibility, I'm gonna update this thing after Holy Fury comes out

 

[myrt]

Smol update: I changed what buildings the AI likes to build. Barons now knows that castle towns are good and castle fortifications are bad. Same goes for mayors and priests and their equivalent buildings.

 

[myrt]

Big update:
- Added the Balkan route, just some short and sweet trade roads transporting minerals from Serbia and Bosnia to Ragusa.
- Added Via Egnatia from Constantinople to Durazo
- Updated the Trans-Saharan trade route. I changed the directions of gold flow and added a couple more connections here and there. I'm also planning on utilizing the new DLC features from Holy Fury as soon as it is released. It's also nice that Paradox is adding more flavour to the route so I won't have to do it.

In the case of Trans-Saharan trade this is little more complicated.

The principal trading articles were: gold, slaves and salt. This is what opened the trade in the 8th-9th century. The salt originated from central parts of Sahara, the gold and slaves from the south. The caravans were operated by the Berbers... originaly the middle-men of this trade. They had the salt and they were changing it for gold... that gold they transported to the north where they could buy goods for themselves for that gold. As the volume of trade increased, the northern goods started to be sold in the Sahel too, but still the most valuable trade good there was the salt (and to a degree also horses). The ones profitting the most was therefore the northern part of this trade complex - centers like Sijilmasa, Tahert/Tlemcen, Fezzan and Tunis getting cheap gold.... those were as trading centres totally dependent on resources comming across the Sahara, not the other way around. From this perspective the main direction of the trade was undoubtedly form the Sahel's gold fields northwards.

The only thing to effectively counter this direction would be the technology (and religion), which obviously spread the other way around (OTOH, the civilizations of the Sahel were not that much technologically backward so that the technologies comming from the north would be so essential for them.

That said the starting points of these trade routes should IMHO be Bambuk, Bure and Jenne in West Africa (Jenne as by far the most important trading center of the region before the rise of Timbuktu in the 14th century) and then Kano and Kanem/Bornu area in the central Sahara (as the principal sources for slaves).
If you want little better map also with the main trade goods of Trans-Saharan trade, here you go:

I've updated the Trans-Saharan trade route to be more in line with suggestions ITT now. It's a lot more dynamic, and I'm a lot more pleased with how it ended up now from a gameplay perspective as well.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Big update:
- Added the Balkan route, just some short and sweet trade roads transporting minerals from Serbia and Bosnia to Ragusa.

Would be nice to integrate Dalmatia to it as well, especially Zadar and Split as important trade ports on the Adriatic.

Perhaps also path from Rashka to Kotor as it was quite important for some Venetian ventures there (IIRC silver).

 

[myrt]

Would be nice to integrate Dalmatia to it as well, especially Zadar and Split as important trade ports on the Adriatic.

Perhaps also path from Rashka to Kotor as it was quite important for some Venetian ventures there (IIRC silver).

Unless I'm mistaken, exploitation of silver didn't really take off in the Balkans until the 14th to 15th century, which is towards the end of CK2's timeframe. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

 

[Erilaz]

Perhaps a new trade route running between Lüneburg, Lübeck, and Western Scania would be a good addition? That would cover both the Salt transportation between Lüneburg and Lübeck as well as the Scanian herring markets. Both had their heyday quite late in the game's time frame, but their relevance started to grow already in the 11th-12th century.

See for overview:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skåne_Market
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Salt_Route

 

[myrt]

Perhaps a new trade route running between Lüneburg, Lübeck, and Western Scania would be a good addition? That would cover both the Salt transportation between Lüneburg and Lübeck as well as the Scanian herring markets. Both had their heyday quite late in the game's time frame, but their relevance started to grow already in the 11th-12th century.

See for overview:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skåne_Market
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Salt_Route

Yeah, sounds good. I'll look into that.

 

[myrt]

New stuff:

- Added "Old Salt Route" from Lüneberg to Lübeck
- Expanded the Silk Road (see pic)
- Fixed a bug where you could build trade posts anywhere on the Via Egnatia and on the Balkan route (this *always* happens whenever I add new routes)

Would be nice to integrate Dalmatia to it as well, especially Zadar and Split as important trade ports on the Adriatic.

Perhaps also path from Rashka to Kotor as it was quite important for some Venetian ventures there (IIRC silver).

I'll experiment with a more dynamic trade route in the Balkans from Radnik and Novo Brdo (passes through Rashka btw) once Holy Fury comes out. It clutters the map quite a bit, so I'm just keeping the draft in a 7z until I've fleshed it out. Until then, I'm keeping the Balkan trade route as it is.

 

[veji2]

Hi Myrt, Some very stupid questions and an observation :
- Which DLCs do I need to buy if I want to play your trade mod in complement of the HIP games I am already playing ? I don't have the republic/Jade/horse lords DLCs at this stage so which one(s) should I buy ?
- It seems that you didn't implement the old transcausasus trade route which use to be a massive source of income for Georgia (and Trabzon through some coastal trade) in the time period. In the time period covered by this game it was very much active, going up the Mtkvari river valley from the caspian sea and then crossing into the Colchidia to the port of Potis.

Cheers.

 

[Erilaz]

I wonder, don't the coastal trade posts built by non-Merchant Republics conflict with the MR trade posts? They seem to have different buildings. What happens if a MR conquers a trade post on the coast built by a non-MR? Will it convert to a regular MR trade post?

 

[myrt]

Hi Myrt, Some very stupid questions and an observation :
- Which DLCs do I need to buy if I want to play your trade mod in complement of the HIP games I am already playing ? I don't have the republic/Jade/horse lords DLCs at this stage so which one(s) should I buy ?
- It seems that you didn't implement the old transcausasus trade route which use to be a massive source of income for Georgia (and Trabzon through some coastal trade) in the time period. In the time period covered by this game it was very much active, going up the Mtkvari river valley from the caspian sea and then crossing into the Colchidia to the port of Potis.

Cheers.

If you have any pointers on where that Transcaucasion route goes, I'll gladly add it. Georgia feels a little neglected.

You need either Horse Lords or Jade Dragon in order for the trade route system to be unlocked.

 

[veji2]

Thanks for the answer, I'll get back to you with some elements on the transcaucasian route.

 

[myrt]

I wonder, doesn't the coastal trade posts built by non-Merchant Republics conflict with the MR trade posts? They seem to have different buildings. What happens if a MR conquers a trade post on the coast built by a non-MR? Will it convert to a regular MR trade post?

I was thinking about this the other day. There are three outcomes I can think of:
1. Building remains
2. Building becomes inactive
3. Building is destroyed

Where this could go wrong is with the garrison building, as patrician TPs and trade route TPs have unique trade post buildings. So as not to cause problems for people mid-campaign, I've decided to hold off editing building requirements until the Holy Fury patch since that one will break saves anyway. Specifically, I'm gonna merge the garrison buildings so as to avoid any potential problems when the trade post changes hands. Will also fix other potential issues as I find them.

 

[veji2]

So I found some sources on the trade route in Georgia, the more I read into it the more it looks like :
1/ it existed and was prosperous in Antiquity and again in the 11th/12th century when Georgia was a stable political entity and before the Mongol invasions.
2/ It was never a major branch of the silk road though.

Which brings me to a silly question : How could one emulate the difference in importance and flow between some trade routes ? Could one make trade posts unable to upgrade on some routes to emulate their secondary aspect ? Because for example in the georgian case it should existe but as a secondary branch.

 

[myrt]

So I found some sources on the trade route in Georgia, the more I read into it the more it looks like :
1/ it existed and was prosperous in Antiquity and again in the 11th/12th century when Georgia was a stable political entity and before the Mongol invasions.
2/ It was never a major branch of the silk road though.

Which brings me to a silly question : How could one emulate the difference in importance and flow between some trade routes ? Could one make trade posts unable to upgrade on some routes to emulate their secondary aspect ? Because for example in the georgian case it should existe but as a secondary branch.

Emulate flow between some trade routes? You don't, gotta cross your fingers for CK3 for that. Paradox don't like dynamic systems. It does pain me, however, because it makes the transition from the Silk Road in Constantinople to other routes very awkward.

When it comes to emulating the difference between trade routes, yes, I could manually restrict certain buildings so that they could only be built on certain routes or even in certain provinces (Radhanite buildings, for example, can only be built in certain provinces). However, I don't like arbitrary restrictions, either. You already get lower returns from less important trade routes, I feel that's representative enough of the difference in wealth.