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Wenceslaus II.

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Why do you give the White Croats so much land? Can I have sources if you have any?
Not the mod author, but I'd recommend the Between Rome and Byzantium : Birth of Central and Eastern Europe by František Dvorník
 

TheDovahkiin97

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High Elder Ash

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Just because the land was called that, it doesn't mean the people living there were all White Croats. Like how not everyone in Greater Hungary were Hungarians. What about the Lendians who lived in that area? Were they Croatian?
 

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Just because the land was called that, it doesn't mean the people living there were all White Croats. Like how not everyone in Greater Hungary were Hungarians. What about the Lendians who lived in that area? Were they Croatian?
AFAIK Lendians where either West Slavs of Lechitic group who later became ruthenised after having been conquered by the Kievian Princes or they have been Eastern Slavs to start with who have adopted a lot of Western Slavs' material and linguistic culture. As far as the linguistic and archeological sources' analysis goes it is impossible to deduce it with a high degree of certainty.
 

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Can you really assume that these tribes and cultures were so similar that it justifies blanketing them into one mega culture in the middle of Europe?
 

Wenceslaus II.

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Can you really assume that these tribes and cultures were so similar that it justifies blanketing them into one mega culture in the middle of Europe?
Assuming how early we're talking about, it wouldn't be wrong to have like 6 slavic blobs overall.
 

TheDovahkiin97

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Just because the land was called that, it doesn't mean the people living there were all White Croats. Like how not everyone in Greater Hungary were Hungarians. What about the Lendians who lived in that area? Were they Croatian?
I still dont think that you actually read everything inside my first spoiler otherwise you would understand that there never were "white croats".
And what i am trying to present here is proto-slavic in form of Horvatian and Sorbian. There also isnt such a thing as "west slavic" and "east slavic" in this period of time. Those constructs developed along the polish/russian border. West ukrainian and east polish are still extremly intelligible. You think this is a big cultural blob? Seems like you havent seen the german, english, arabian, persian, greek, norse or spanish one yet
 

TheDovahkiin97

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AFAIK Lendians where either West Slavs of Lechitic group who later became ruthenised after having been conquered by the Kievian Princes or they have been Eastern Slavs to start with who have adopted a lot of Western Slavs' material and linguistic culture. As far as the linguistic and archeological sources' analysis goes it is impossible to deduce it with a high degree of certainty.
You are taking this from the wrong (modern) perspective. You just go with the idea that poland and russia formed along the similarity of its inhabitants and ended where they were not so similar anymore. You assume that the people of pre poland/russia were two cultures waiting for their unification. But this is blantly wrong on every possible level. Silesia and lesser poland for example were part of Great Moravia and after that Bohemia before poland took over and this could have been very easily the case up to this day if Hungarians and Germans didnt interfere. Same with Great Croatia and avars.
 

Choorus

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You are taking this from the wrong (modern) perspective. You just go with the idea that poland and russia formed along the similarity of its inhabitants and ended where they were not so similar anymore. You assume that the people of pre poland/russia were two cultures waiting for their unification. But this is blantly wrong on every possible level. Silesia and lesser poland for example were part of Great Moravia and after that Bohemia before poland took over and this could have been very easily the case up to this day if Hungarians and Germans didnt interfere. Same with Great Croatia and avars.
I don't think my post contains the assumptions You mention. I shall leave it unedited.
Firstly, I don't consider Russia as an heir state to Kievian Rus'. Not any more than modern Ukraine or Belarus.
Secondly I don't think it is anyhow controversial idea that Western and Eastern Slavs have started to differentiate linguistically and materially before the Old Gods' start date.
Thirdly hold your horses. If You take some time to read what I've written, You'll see that if anything my post proves an existence of cultural continuum between the Western and Eastern Slavs (at least in the Southern, more populated area between today Lublin and Lviv). I have written nothing about some stark cultural border, quite the opposite.
Fourthly, I am aware that Great Moravia existed and that it most likely held at least some control over what today is Southern Poland.
Fifthly, perhaps Bohemian, Polish and some other lands could have had become what later the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was. It happened at least under Wenceslaus II and III (though briefly) of Bohemia. We will never know, but I don't see why not. After all even in 20th century there were plans for such a confederacy.
Sixthly, we have only a really vague idea as to where exactly the White Croats really were located. The archaeological evidence is almost non-existent and the written sources we have are extremely limited and not clear. Your mod is an interesting experiment and I hope it is fun to play. To say however that they could have survived as a stable polity, when we don't really know who they were and were they dwelled is well, let's say, intellectually adventurous. Maybe they could and maybe they could not, we will not know until we find something more on their subject.
Finally, Avars maybe could possibly survive in some form, especially being given their assimilation with the local populace, at least judging from the material evidence they left. Being given though how scantly populated the Panonian plain was when the Magyars have moved in, it is a safer bet that their hold of the area was already rather unstable. Maybe they could have recovered, just as the Bulgarians. In another timeline why not.
Good luck with mod and with the research. I always welcome mods pertaining to Central and Eastern Europe. Also keep your head a bit cooler ;)
 

TheDovahkiin97

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I don't think my post contains the assumptions You mention. I shall leave it unedited.
Firstly, I don't consider Russia as an heir state to Kievian Rus'. Not any more than modern Ukraine or Belarus.
Secondly I don't think it is anyhow controversial idea that Western and Eastern Slavs have started to differentiate linguistically and materially before the Old Gods' start date.
Thirdly hold your horses. If You take some time to read what I've written, You'll see that if anything my post proves an existence of cultural continuum between the Western and Eastern Slavs (at least in the Southern, more populated area between today Lublin and Lviv). I have written nothing about some stark cultural border, quite the opposite.
Fourthly, I am aware that Great Moravia existed and that it most likely held at least some control over what today is Southern Poland.
Fifthly, perhaps Bohemian, Polish and some other lands could have had become what later the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was. It happened at least under Wenceslaus II and III (though briefly) of Bohemia. We will never know, but I don't see why not. After all even in 20th century there were plans for such a confederacy.
Sixthly, we have only a really vague idea as to where exactly the White Croats really were located. The archaeological evidence is almost non-existent and the written sources we have are extremely limited and not clear. Your mod is an interesting experiment and I hope it is fun to play. To say however that they could have survived as a stable polity, when we don't really know who they were and were they dwelled is well, let's say, intellectually adventurous. Maybe they could and maybe they could not, we will not know until we find something more on their subject.
Finally, Avars maybe could possibly survive in some form, especially being given their assimilation with the local populace, at least judging from the material evidence they left. Being given though how scantly populated the Panonian plain was when the Magyars have moved in, it is a safer bet that their hold of the area was already rather unstable. Maybe they could have recovered, just as the Bulgarians. In another timeline why not.
Good luck with mod and with the research. I always welcome mods pertaining to Central and Eastern Europe. Also keep your head a bit cooler ;)
You are by far not the first one telling me that i should cool down and im sorry if my writing sounds heated but it really isnt im just trying to argue here.

And again im telling you that there are no "white croats" this is just a label for the "ancient homeland". A label that appeared in modern croatia after the croatian migration to modern croatia. There was just one big ass entity called "Horvatija" (- croatia) stretching over southern poland, western ukraine, eastern slovakia. The czech legend of Leh, Czech and Rus mentions it also as the old homeland and people are confused about how it can be modern croatia which would be lunatic. Its simply not. Old croats were not in one place they were all over eastern europe which you would know if you read the first spoiler of my startpost.

Im talking here about a time before 562. slavic history does not start in the 1000s.

And i mentioned Horvatija and Avars together because it is likely that the avars caused its destruction

Also people dont want to find anything on this subject as it is regarded as a threat to the legitimacy of modern eastern european states (by them). We have sources about this topic. Many different mentionings, but its easier to go with "yeah probably primitive slavic tribes all over the place but lets draw a line along the modern polish border where west ends and east begins"
 
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Wenceslaus II.

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The czech legend of Leh, Czech and Rus mentions it also as the old homeland
There's actually a difference in the czech language though.
The ancestral homeland is Charvátsko.
While the balkan country is Chorvatsko.
 

TheDovahkiin97

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There's actually a difference in the czech language though.
The ancestral homeland is Charvátsko.
While the balkan country is Chorvatsko.
Yeah and the coastal chakavian croats still call themselves Harvati and the land Harvatska while the northeners call themselves Horvati/Horvatska, which you would know if you read my introduction in the first spoiler

Btw czechs calling the croats Chorvats is a new thing.
And Ch in czech is the same sound as H in croatian, just to make it clear for other readers.
And I like your CoA ;)
 
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Wenceslaus II.

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Perma123

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I don't know if this is intentional, but currently, titles held by "Ruski" characters only have "High Chief" as their title and not a culture appropriate name, like "Kniaz". Furthermore, in the "Harvatian" and "Ruski" culture groups, they only contain Russian names for men and women. I suppose it might make sense in the later years past when the first Kievan Rus entity was formed, but prior to then (around the 867 bookmark), I don't know if it makes sense to have only these two culture groups and only one name set for both cultures. My suggestion would be to differentiate the name sets for the different Slavic culture groups, and to reintroduce the different portrait sets for the Slavic cultures, even if they are under one culture group (or re-split them into groups that can have different portraits).

Thank you for your time reading this post! Your mod is overwise very good! <3
 

TheDovahkiin97

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I don't know if this is intentional, but currently, titles held by "Ruski" characters only have "High Chief" as their title and not a culture appropriate name, like "Kniaz". Furthermore, in the "Harvatian" and "Ruski" culture groups, they only contain Russian names for men and women. I suppose it might make sense in the later years past when the first Kievan Rus entity was formed, but prior to then (around the 867 bookmark), I don't know if it makes sense to have only these two culture groups and only one name set for both cultures. My suggestion would be to differentiate the name sets for the different Slavic culture groups, and to reintroduce the different portrait sets for the Slavic cultures, even if they are under one culture group (or re-split them into groups that can have different portraits).

Thank you for your time reading this post! Your mod is overwise very good! <3
High Chief: I know, this is still on my agenda and will someday be fixed but there is also so much other stuff to do.
I did not yet touch the russian culture but the Horvatski cultural names are more like "Proto-Slavic" names. Most of them are basically names with the -slav suffix. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that they are "Russian".
Also im not sure if you understand the CK2 concept of cultures and groups. "Horvatski", "Ruski" and all the other slavic cultures (except south slavs) are in one cultural group named "Slavic".
The "Ruski" culture however is going to be split up for 867. This is definite.
Regarding portraits i have chosen the east slavic portraits for "Horvatski" because they came from the east. The only reason why they look "Russian" to you is because russians are the only ones using those portraits in base HIP.

Thank you for your support!
 

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Did you considered changing available Wendish (in your mod pomeranian and sorbian) character names? Wendish playthrough is very fun, but I'm always annoyed with names, which are comprised of Polish (i. e. Miroslaw, Wincenty, Grazyna, Wladyslaw, Szczepan), Czech (i.e. Bretislav, Bedrich, Jindrich, Wratislaw, Jirí, Alzbeta, Markéta) German (Kasper, Ludvik, Udalrich, Gertruda, Regelinda, along with Christian names (Antoni, Grzegorz, Marian, Magdalena, Ewa) and even more modern names like Kamil and Blazej? There are some original Wendish names, but not that many. Is fixing this a part of your submod? I can help with reasearch if needed.
 

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Did you considered changing available Wendish (in your mod pomeranian and sorbian) character names? Wendish playthrough is very fun, but I'm always annoyed with names, which are comprised of Polish (i. e. Miroslaw, Wincenty, Grazyna, Wladyslaw, Szczepan), Czech (i.e. Bretislav, Bedrich, Jindrich, Wratislaw, Jirí, Alzbeta, Markéta) German (Kasper, Ludvik, Udalrich, Gertruda, Regelinda, along with Christian names (Antoni, Grzegorz, Marian, Magdalena, Ewa) and even more modern names like Kamil and Blazej? There are some original Wendish names, but not that many. Is fixing this a part of your submod? I can help with reasearch if needed.
yes it is. sorbian names are already changed and adjusted (very similar to Horvatian). Wendish however is untouched atm and it probably will be for a long time as i have absolutely zero time to work on the mod...
 

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yes it is. sorbian names are already changed and adjusted (very similar to Horvatian). Wendish however is untouched atm and it probably will be for a long time as i have absolutely zero time to work on the mod...
If wouldn't mind, I could do this part, because despite my japanese nick, I'm both Polish and Kashubian and I have historical literature to do that.
 

TheDovahkiin97

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If wouldn't mind, I could do this part, because despite my japanese nick, I'm both Polish and Kashubian and I have historical literature to do that.
i dont mind at all. ideally attach sources to your names.
There is however a problem with the writing system of polish and kashubian. Many sounds changed with time and its pretty hard to decide what would fit best ingame both for historical accuracy and the modern polish/kashubian player-connection to these cultures.
Letters like "ą ł ó" which are pronounced almost like "o v u" but in the past were actually "a l o"
And "ę y ż" are almost the same as "e i ź"
Also the letters "ś w ź" are questionable since we have the identical "š v ž" forms from other far more widespread slavic languages
And Kashubian (also silesian) has some more letters i believe also with many different diacritical marks
Shits complicated.
 

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Not to mention that quite a few of these letters don't work in game.