• We will be taking the forums down for scheduled maintenance on 12 August 2020 at approximately 3PM CDT (8PM UTC / 10PM CEST), this downtime is currently estimated to last around 1 hour.
  • Pre order now!

    Paradox Development Studio brings you the sequel to one of the most popular strategy games ever made! Crusader Kings III is soon upon us and you can pre order it today!


    Releasing September 1st 2020

TheDovahkiin97

Major
4 Badges
Apr 7, 2018
561
2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Download at the bottom of the post or through the workshop

ⰘⰋⰒ - ⰁⰑⰎⰋ ⰔⰎⰑⰂⰅⰐⰋ


This is an overhaul of the Slavic World displayed in base HIP.
This thread is also supposed to be a platform for suggestions and argumentations on how the setup of the said region should be reworked by me and the HIP devs.

I am not here to denounce or delegitimize modern people, nations, religions or to propagate any kind of balkan-famous idiotism.
The goal is to forge an as accurate as possible picture of early medieval Eastern Europe, because in my eyes this region has not got enough love yet.
I am trying to achieve this goal by explaining every change/suggestion I make.
If I dont pls ask for it and feel free to make explained suggestions yourself so we can argue peacefully.
The most obvious feature of this mod is the heavily changed cultural setup of Eastern Europe in 867 and 936 which is supposed to represent the local cultures independent from what will later in time evolve into modern Slavic states.
Inside the following spoiler you will find a detailed explanation of very early slavic history and how early eastern european states formed:
The cultural changes evolved around the conclusion that there was an entity called "Horvatija" which ceased to exists at the latest in 562.
Its inhabitants were what we today call "Proto-Slavs" which were formed inside as a culture with two main ingredients:

1. An indigenous population which romans referred to as the "Veneti" people and we today culturally identify as "Proto-Balto-Slavs".
The "Veneti" inhabited a large area in Eastern Europe all the way from Prussia in the west, the Carpathians in the south and Moscow in the east.
They did not yet have any specifically "Slavic" character but were instead an early form of what would later influencelessly evolve into cultures like Lithuanian, Latvian, Prussian and "Dnepr-Baltic".
However a large portion of the "Veneti" was heavily influenced which brings us to the second main ingredient of "Proto Slavic":
2. Skytho - Sarmatian Nomads invaded an area roughly including from what is today Katowice in the west, Košice in the south, Zhytomyr in the east and Brest in the North.
These people who trace their origin from somewhere in Persia acted as a less numbered and ruling warrior-class.
Over time they influenced the local "Veneti" both culturally and linguistically and this slowly gave birth to the "Proto-Slavic" ethos.
It is very likely that all kinds of different nomadic people entered this melting pot, like for example "Alans".
However we know only of two tribes whose ethonym survived to this day and unlike all the other ethonyms of known slavic tribes it does not trace its origin from the "Proto-Slavic" linguistic spectrum or any geographic region but instead from the Steppe or beyond.
Im talking about what is today identified as "Croatian" and "Serbian".
The modern Croatians and Serbians however do not have much in common with the ancient people from whom they inherited their identity as an arhaic leftover of what they today use for their ethnical self identification.
The name of the entity they formed with the "Veneti" might have changed even multiple times but its last and only known name is "Megali Croatia" by Greco-Romans and "Horvatija" in the native tongue.
Over time the biggest part of its population started to embrace the identity of their overlords which meant that they identified as "Horvati", "Sorbi" and "Dulibi".
The origin of the "Dulebes" is uncertain but its likely that their ethonym also evolved in or beyond the Steppe. They are regarded as the primary ancestors of "Volhynians" and "Buzhans".

There are currently two theories how "Horvatija" ceased to exist:
1. A Czech legend states that it broke apart because of inner unrests and kinslayings between the members of the ruling class.
2. But its more likely that it collapsed with the invasion of the Avars who turned at its core region in 562 when they entered the Pannonian Basin at the Verecke Pass just like the Hungarians and Mongols would do later.
The Avars took advantage of a big part of "Horvatijas" population, used them as their own subordinated population and brought them to the Pannonian Basin from where they together invaded the Balkans, Carinthia, Moravia and the southeastern half of Bohemia.
In the period from 562 to 890 the Avars were heavily influenced by the majorly "Proto Slavic" population and slowly adopted the common slavic tongue as their new lingua franca until Pannonia got overrun by Hungarians.
The remaining slavic people from "Horvatija" spreaded to all directions where they formed new cultural spheres with the local populations.
This marked the second major decline of the "Veneti" culture as they got overrun and assimilated by the descendants of their own formerly southern people.
They got attacked in two regions:
1. From Gniezno in the west to Wizna in the east where the conquering "Proto Slavs" formed a culture that will later be the fundament of the Polish Kingdom.
2. From Minsk in the west, Kiev in the south, Kaluga in the east and Weliki Nowgorod in the north where the conquering "Proto Slavs" formed a slightly different cultural sphere with the "eastern Veneti" ("Dnepr-Balts") and the Finno-Ugric "Fenni" people along the northeastern borderregions of said territory.
This population would later form the cultural fundament of the Kievan Rus entity, established by "Proto-Swedish" Vikings.
But there were more slavic spheres that were not influenced by Avars and attacked only a very small branch of the remanining "Veneti" around Gdansk but mostly "east Germanic" tribes along the coast in the west all the way up to Kiel.
This population of mostly Slavs and leftovers of "east Germanic" people who mostly left the area during the migration period formed a culture that would later evolve into the Obodrit, Lutic and Pomeranian tribal unions.
The just recently evolved Slavs were still unknown to the Germanics, but they were very similar to a culture that Germanics were very aware of as their eastern neighbours who suddenly almost completely disappered and no longer bordered the Germanics.
Im talking about the "Veneti" and this is why the Germans continued to call their eastern neighbours "Wendi" and their land "Wendland".
The Slavs however probably rather referred to themselves with their tribal and regional names like "Pò-mòrzóni" (Pre-sea [coast] inhabitants) and "Po-labi" (Pre-labians [Laba is the Elbe river in slavic languages]).
This however does not mean that they differed from each other since they were one Slavic cluster based on a previous "east Germanic" cluster covering the same territory.
The next slavic sphere was the "Sorbian" one which was based in western Silesia, northern and western Bohemia and westwardly extended Lusatia.
These regions were sparsely populated by "elbe Germanic" leftovers which had a rather central Germanic character. They formed the Sorbian entity with their new "Sorbian" overlords, which is often referred to as "White Serbia".
These "Sorbs" dwell to this day in eastern Germany where they managed to preserve their culture, language and heritage after centuries of agressive persecution.

But you might ask yourself what happend to the "Horvatians", the ruling class of "Horvatija"? The better question would rather be: is there something that did not happen to them?
Because of "Horvatijas" decline the "Horvatians" were probably the biggest enemies of the Avars and this is probably the reason why they scattered all over Eastern Europe and created tribal enclaves which struggled for survival in the following centuries.
The most famous enclave is mythical "White Croatia" which symbolizes the old Homeland of modern croatians as a much smaller continuum of the older "Horvatija/Megali Croatia" in which the "White Croats" continued to exist.
Historians struggle to determine its exact location because they falsely equate it with the older "Horvatija/Megali Croatia" and try to draw a circle around all/most "Horvatian" enclaves and end up with ridiculous state borders from Bohemia over Pannonia down to the Black Sea.
Therefore "White Croatia" is just a mythical attempt to determine one single entity and location from which all modern croatians descended.
A big part of the "Horvatian" and "Dulebian" population got dragged to Pannonia by Avars where they were abused as lower class people.
A part of them therefore decided to move to middle Silesia and the southeastern half of Bohemia where they no longer identified as "Horvati" but "Harvati" instead.
This change could have happend because the local "elbe Germanic" population influenced their pronounciation but it might also have happend much earlier.
At this time Greco-Romans still referred to the northwestern half of Bohemia as "Boïki" because of the Celtic "Boii" tribe which lived there long before.
They mentioned that modern Serbs trace their origin from there and that they came to the Balkans right after the Croats who were mentioned to border them in "Boïki".
The "Harvats" there were invited to fight the raiding Avars and Slavs in Dalmatia in exchange for the land they liberate.
This resulted in the establishment of Dalmatian Croatia which later formed the Croatian Kingdom in 925 after the Battle of Drava where they liberated the territory of "Pannonia Savia" and roughly "Pannonia Secunda" from the invading Hungarians.
This is why the modern Kajkavian croats in the north refer to themselves as "Horvati" while the coastal Chakavian croats call themselves just like modern Czechs call the croats in general - "Harvati".
The remaining "Harvats" in Bohemia however managed to survive and together with the "Dulebians" they competed with the Premyslids from Prague over the control of entire Bohemia but the "Harvatian" "Slavniković" dynasty got slaughtered in 995.
This was a key event for the slavs of Bohemia as their unrivaled rule centered in Prague which allowed the Premyslids, as descendants of the former "Česi" tribe whose mythical forefather "Čeh" founded Prague, to melt all the local slavic tribes into beeing "Czech" which should from then on also equal beeing "Bohemian".

A different "Horvatian" enclave and its current ruler "Laborec" found its end around Uzhhorod during the Hungarian conquest in 896.
Another one in Galicia was attacked and subjugated by Vladimir the Great in 992.
More Horvats are mentioned briefly by many different primary sources in Carinthia, Silesia, Polabia, around Kiev, around Moscow etc.
They survived even until the 19th century in southern Poland and Volhynian Ukraine where the still declared as "Horvati" although they suffered from heavy persecution by all kinds of different regimes and ideologies.
Most of them were integrated into the modern States of eastern Europe where they became part of ethnically consolidating processes.
Due to linguistics you can still make out the outlines of former "Horvatija" when you look at the three bordering dialects of modern Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine.

However their culture still exists in the only region that offered them natural protection from bigger outside factors - The Carpathian Mountains.
The only issue is that they did not manage to preserve their name after the 19th century.
Instead they refer to themselves by their smallest tribal subcultures in fear of persecution while the world accepted a label for them which was invented with the purpose to make them look closer to what we today call "Russian".
This label is called "Rusyn" and it is equally meaningless like the other exonyms to form bigger sub-russian identities like "(White, Black, Red Ruthenian", "Malorossijani" (Small-Russians), "Bilorussovi" (White-Russians), "Velikorossijani" (Great-Russians) etc.
Due to the ending of heavy persecution they slowly start to identify as "Horvati" again.

The last bigger enclave is a tribe that we today call "Lendians" or "Ljahs" which itself however still calls "Lemko(-Rusyn)" and inhabited the region of "Lesser Poland" and the "Cherven Cities" until it got conquered by Mieszko I. Piast around 990 who from then on integrated them into the early polish state.
This brings us back to the establishment of the "Poljani" tribe which begins with the founding of the capital Gniezno by the mythical polish forefather "Lech".
"Polje" means "Field/Farm" in Slavic and "Poljani" therefore "Fielders/Farmers".
This tribe managed to dominate the surrounding tribes and it started to do so by expanding to the east and uniting the previously mentioned culture from Gniezno to Wizna consisting of "Proto Slavs" and the indigenous "Veneti".
This culture and its formed dialect of "Proto Slavic" with additional Baltic features will later manage to dominate inside the modern polish state and establish the southern continuums, which lack these additional Baltic features, as dialects of its newly created language.
The early polish state continued to expand over Lebus, "Lesser Poland" and Silesia which were to this point part of the Sorb union and Bohemia and much more related to their cultural sphere.
This was made possible with the help of the Holy Roman Empire which used the early polish state as an ally to put pressure from all directions on Bohemia and the Sorb union in order to establish their own rule there.
Silesia and the "Cherven Cities" remained to this day a heavily disputed border region of the polish state and this is how the former territory of "Horvatija" got divided right in its center at the very same time by three major powers: the Hungarians, the Poljani and the Rus.
historian.jpg
Gameplay:
  • East and West slavic merged into one "Slavic" culture group. South Slavs however remain distinct as their culture was heavily influenced by mediterranean cultures and indigenous Vlahs.
  • The Pommeranian Slavs were degraded from Kings to Dukes.
  • Added a Horvatski and Sorbski culture with Proto-Slavic characteristics
  • If no Horvat or Sorb rules over any Horvatian or Sorbian province inside Bohemia the provinces will turn Bohemian
  • Slavs/Romanians have a slighly higher chance to convert Avar and Bolghar provinces if the religion is their own and there is a neighbouring province of their culture
    Same for Paeonians over Bulgarians
De jure and Government changes:
  • Great Moravia is regarded as a successor state of Samo's Empire and therefore its entire Historical territory except Cracov and Pannonia is de jure in 867
  • Eastern Pannonia has been replaced by a new Dacian Kingdom to represent its old Roman province
  • Slavonia is de jure Pannonia for the same reason in 867
  • Southern Poland and Galicia-Volhynia have been divided by new Horvatija, Kiev and Lithuania because both are far from beeing formed in History
  • Lauenburg is de jure Pommerania because it has not been in the German or Saxon Kingdom until 1167
  • Lusatia, Silesia, Moravia and Cracov are de jure Bohemia in 936 as it is a successor state of Great Moravia and has also conquered these territorys later until Poland took over in 990
  • Syrmia is de jure Croatia from 955 until 1071 as Hungary held it only briefly after the conquest
  • Lusatia is de jure Saxony in 965 and Brandenburg is in 1150
All of the following events can happen in any order:
  • Great Moravia can conquer/annex Cracov
  • If Great Moravia has no holder its de jure to the North and West of Moravia becomes de jure Bohemia. If the Hungarian conquest already finished, Bohemia also gains Moravia, while Hungary gains everything in the South.
  • The Dacian Kingdom disappears after the Hungarian conquest
  • Croatia can conquer/annex Slavonia followed by Syrmia after Dacia disappeared
  • Poland can conquer/annex Silesia
  • If Poland conquers Cracow or Sandomierz OR if Kiev conquers Belz or Galich, de jure Horvatija breaks apart in favor of Poland and Galicia-Volhynia. Also Sieradz and Leczyca go back to Cracov from Kujavia
  • Kiev can conquer/annex Podlasie. If Horvatija broke apart Galicia can do it instead.
  • Germany/HRE can conquer/annex Lauenburg and Brandenburg
  • Germany/HRE can conquer/annex Lusatia after it conquered/annexed Meissen or Wittenberg, which also makes Mansfeld go back to Wittenberg from Thuringia
dejure.gif
  • Syrmia is feudal because of old Roman fortifications
  • Bohemia and Moravia are Tribal in 867 to simulate the castle organization introduced first by Boleslav I., their similarty to neighbouring tribes and their distinction from more advanced South Slavs who were under heavy Roman influence
  • The recently subjugated slavic vassals of Ostmark in 936 are still tribal
Better Bulgaria:
  • Pliska is the capital in 867
  • New "Pajonski" (Paeonian) south slavic culture for 867 Bulgaria
  • The nobility of Bulgaria is "Bolghar" in 867
  • The Bolghar culture can spread only very slowly inside the Bulgarian Kingdom
  • New maintenance free Bolghar "horde" composed of 2550 soldiers for the King which disbands with the next event
  • Decision "Council of Preslav" appears, which fires an invitation for the lords of Bulgaria if Preslav and Ohrid are owned and the year is 893 or later
    Followed by the Council itself after 20 days
    1. Makes Preslav the capital
    2. Banishes Graeco-Roman lords out of the realm
    3. Makes Tengrist/Bolghar provinces Christian
    4. Makes the King, his court and Preslav Bulgarian, which will spread slowly over neighbouring Bolghar/Paeonian provinces and vassals if they are Christian
    5. The Bolghar/Paeonian vassals will support the Reformation but the Graeco-Roman Emperor will oppose it
    6. Tengrist players can choose to stay tengrist but get blinded and imprisoned
  • Skopje, Ohrid and Tarnovo are capitals through history
  • CoA and name change of Bulgaria to "Pajonija" if paeonians own it
  • 15 new random paeonian dynasties representing the local slavic tribes/regions
event2.png
Better Hungary:
  • Hungarians will conquer the entire Kingdoms of Pannonia, Dacia and Great Moravia up to the Moravian Duchy
  • Hungary will loose its invasion troops after the conquest
  • All Provinces which got hungarian through history, will become hungarian/tengrist within the conquest
  • Khavar culture appears within the Hungarian Conquest and slowly turns Székely when the provinces take any Christianity
Better Croatia:
867: As soon as the Byzantine Empire is at peace, it will declare war on Croatia
to press the claim of the leader in Korčula over Croatia
After the war:
  1. Force abdicating everything the Domagojević dynasty members hold to the leader of Korčula and banishing them
  2. Croatia will be granted tributary independence
  3. The Emperor has the choice to keep them as vassals instead
There are three ways to survive as the Domagojević's:
1. Win the war 2. Vassalize yourself 3. Found the croatian Kingdom
Everything is based on the history of Knez Zdeslav Trpimirović
event3.png
1010: Appearance of Bosnian culture/Bogomilist religion if any neighbouring province is bosnian and the religious authority of any local Christianity falls under 30%
(The bosnian church was a heresy)
event.png
Province Culture and Religion: Does not yet contain every new change
cultures.gif religions.gif
Culture of 867:
Istria: carantanian -> croatian "Croats settled in the region from about 700 AD onwards." the croatian dialect spoken in istria is chakavian which was early croatias main dialect.

Hvar: serbian -> croatian because of the same reason

Omiš: serbian -> croatian because chakavian was also spoken in omiš and those pagan south slavs were proto-croats.
It was made serbian because the "De Administrando Imperio" describes them as serbs because of two reasons:
1. It reffered to them as "unbaptized serbs" and their paganism maked them seem closer to the serbs who were pagans for a long time unlike the very early christianized croats.
2. It was written in 955 during the rule of the most powerfull serbian ruler "Caslav" who managed to break into Bosnia and probably also at least tributized the narentines. His state collapsed after his death to its past extend. All of this happend while croatia was busy with the invading Hungarians at the Battle of Drava and the invading Bulgarians at the Second Bulgarian War. Go to any wiki about early serbia and you will find funny pictures of Caslav's greater serbia. This is the only point in time they visualize.
John the Deacon reports of a negotiation in 839 with Mislav of Croatia for peace with the Narentines. He called him "princeps" while he called the narentine leader Družak "iudex". This hirarchy indicates a clear subordination and that the Narentines were deeply tied with the early croatian state.
He also reports of a success of Doge Peter (II) Orseolo (991–1009), against the "Slav Croats".
Domagoj the leader of croatia in 867 is considered as "Domoghoi, prinze de Narentani" by the venetians, because he originates from them.
The Narentine leader in 1050 "Berigoj" also has a croatian -goj name.
Also all surrounding provinces Cetina, Završje and Dubrovnik were always in the croatian/dalmatian sphere of coastal influence.

Tolna: avar -> croatian because avars were never a populative majority in this region which is even today partly croatian. They were very few and because of the massive slavic population their lingua franca also became slavic. Also the croatian Braslav ruled the western danube balaton duchy.

Hont: avar -> moravian because this mountainous region was settled by slavs and has managed to hold even today a strong slovak minority.

Szatmar: avar -> romanian because of the same reason: mountains ≠ nomads

Syrmia: bulgarian -> serbian because many timocan serbs from timok region fled into syrmia from the bulgarians.

Branicevo: bulgarian -> serbian because this region was inhabited by branicevian and timocan serbs since their arrival.

Niš: bulgarian -> serbian because this province is the exact distribution of the serbian torlak dialect which is part of the serbo-croatian dialect continuum.

Ohrid/Skopje/Strumica/Velbažd/Sredets/Vidin/Plovdiv/Kopsis/Zagore/Kran/Tarnovo:
bulgarian -> paeonian
&
Preslav/Turnu/Ialomita/Karvuna/Konstanta/Basarabia:
bulgarian -> bolghar
because the final stage of melting between bolghar nomads and slavic locals started with the council of preslav and its reformation of bulgarian (slavic) liturgy (see better bulgaria spoiler).
The new Paeonian culture represents the slavic tribes of this area:
Baiounitai, Belegezites, Berziti, Drougoubitai, Ezerites, Melingoi, Rhynchinoi, Praedenecenti, Sagudates, Smolyani, Strymonites and the ”Seven Slavic tribes” from the territory of modern west-central Bulgaria.
Greeks reffered to Bulgarians as "Moesians" and to Serbs as "Triballians". Those are ancient cultures inhabiting roughly the same territory long before the arrival of Serbs or Bulgarians. And as the slavic population of 867~893 western Bulgaria significantly differed from Turkic Bolghars in the east I decided to name them after an ancient culture from that area - the Paeonians. It would have been wrong to call them Sclavinians because this applies to all southern slavs and is not specific enough.

Adrianopolis: greek -> paeonian because every settlement in this province is bulgarian (slavic) through history except the capital adrinopolis which always had a strong bulgarian (slavic) minority.
Bosnia:
There was for sure no bosnian culture/language before 1010 when the first bosnian "Did" (grandfather) ruled the "bosnian church" which did not accept western or eastern christianity and was fully autonomous.
This serbian map shows the distribution of the bosnian communities mentioned in historic sources by local rulers and invading turks. It is also known that almost all members converted directly to islam because of lacking religious authority.

Map legend:
Orthodox churches
Catholic churches
Towns
Bosnians mentioned in medieval sources
Bosnians mentioned in ottoman sources


So there are no sources indicating that završje, usora or soli provinces were inhabited by any bosnians.
They were simply never isolated and unrulable like the others and podrinje.

1961 muslim blops fit almost exactly to those bosnian community spots shown earlier.
So I made usora, rama -> croatian in 867 like it is today mostly the case.
Vrhbosna is bosnian from begin.
All those provinces will be catholic and become bosnian/bogomilist in 1010. There should actually be a new bosnian religion with the listed rulers as heads. Bogomilism is a placeholder.
Other changes regarding religion in 867:
"Bosnians" are still slavic pagan because of their isolation.

Hvosno/Raška/Polimlje: slavic pagan -> orthodox because the serbian duchy was baptised before 867.
I made north serbs slavic pagan because they are not ruled by baptised serbs.

Skoplje: slavic pagan -> orthodox because im pretty sure that the people there got christianized very early.

Bacau: tengrist -> slavic pagan because the bolohoveni were slavic pagans.

Opava: catholic -> slavic pagan because the silesian leader is slavic pagan and the mountainous region was not yet integrated into Great Moravia.

White croatia and its leader (and son): catholic -> slavic pagan because they are mentioned as unbaptised croats.
Culture of 1018:
Steiermark: bavarian -> slovenian because the people there were for sure still slovenians. It will never become bavarian because the german east settlement of this region started much later. Because I have no idea when it started there I made it german in 1170 because all south germans merge into german in 1170.

Kärnten: stays slovene because it had no german majority in the game scope.

Syrmia: will not become hungarian and then serbian again because they never managed to become a majority.

Pechenegs will never in history convert anything inside k_bulgaria to their culture.
Religion of 1018:
Primorje/Duklja/Podgorje: orthodox -> catholic because this region remained a catholic bastion until at least 1102. Establishment of a archbishopric by bodin vojislavljevic and the pope (which makes him catholic) in 1089. With the death of Dobroslav who was chosen by the people and ruled for one year, montenegrin catholicism rapidly decreases because the serbian states religion is strictly orthodox from this point.

Szatmar: tengrist -> orthodox because they are romanians (and orthodox in 867).

Abauj/Zemplen: catholic -> slavic pagan (orthodox in 1054) because in 1054 (schism) the Rusyn Church took sides and remained Orthodox.

Syrmia: catholic -> orthodox because its under greek rule and belonged to the eparchy of ohrid since 1018. Catholic in 1071.8.26 because with the hungarian conquest the croats and hungarians probably established a religious majority.

Christianisation of hungarian provinces based on this article:
1010 györ/sopron/zalavar/somogy/tolna/hont/heves/borsod
1031 bach/csanad/temis
1047 csongrad/bekes/zarand/bihar/torda
1062 komarom/fejer/visegrad
Map (SWMH):
Carpathian "Verecke_Pass" from c_zemplen to c_peremyshl/c_galich
Verecke.jpg
Görz got the marked region of Aquileia so the cultural setup does not look so weird (slovenians inhabited this region anyways). No baronies have to be moved.
Pset.jpg
Polimlje and Podrinje:
Podrinje got the marked region from polimlje because it contains the drina river and is basically the podrinje region.
It also fits perfectly to be bosnian culture because of the map i showed above about bosnian-community sources.
The city b_foca in polimlje would then be part of the podrinje province (Foca is directly at the drina not the lim river).

Donji Kraji, Vodica and Vrbaš:
Donji Kraji are way too large ingame.
The western part is in the vodica county now which got renamed to "Pset".
This region is described to border the unca river in the south bordering the Završje province.
It is described also to border the una river in the west and this is why my example is also digging into the Lika province. b_bihac has to be moved because it is directly on the una river.

It fits the borders of the Bosnian Kingdom perfectly.
This also fits the bosnian culture because there for sure were no bosnians along the western una river.
Vrbaš however got the eastern Vodica region which is essentially Vrbaš.
This would result in b_bjelaj to be moved from Donji Kraji to Pset and b_vodicevo_una and b_dubica from Pset to Vrbaš.

Also b_zrin and b_stenicnjak (today Sjenicak) in Vodica are wrongly located because they are west of the una river and therefore in the okić province.
b_ozalj in Okić is west of the kupa river and therefore in Modruš.
b_liplje in Vrbaš belongs to Donji Kraji.

Wrongly located baronies only HIP devs can fix ultimately:
HIP:
b_ozalj in c_okic -> c_modrus
b_zrin/b_stenicnjak in c_vodica -> c_okic
b_liplje in c_vrbas -> c_donjikraji

My mod:
b_bihac in c_senj -> c_vodica
b_vodicevo_una/b_dubica in c_vodica -> c_vrbas
b_bjelaj in c_donjikraji -> c_vodica
b_foca in c_polimlje -> c_hum

If this bothers you just delete the "map" folder inside my mod.
Characters: Does not yet contain every new change
  • The duke of Mačva in 867 rules Syrmia.
  • Switched the avar "Isbulid" tribe in Csongrád with the slavic tribe in Fejér and made them vassals of the bulgarian vassal Zalan.
  • The Avar Khan is inside Bulgaria and liege of all other Avar rulers.
  • Replaced the avar "Umorid" tribe from Transylvania to Zaránd.
  • Bessarabia is again under Bulgarian rule.
  • Yassy is under the rule of the russian Tivertsy tribe because their capital was peresechen.
"Borubutze Višević" ruler of chelmia in 867 was from white croatia and his name was "Višeta Višević" the founder of his dynasty and father of "Mihajlo Višević".
Mihajlo is no leader at all in game history.
Borubutze seems to be greek and refering to his surname "(Greek: Bouseboutzis > Visevitz)".
However podgorje should still be serbian but Višeta and his son croatian.
Also the state was indepedent (or even tributary to croatia) until Mihaljos death in 927. He also attended the Council of Split in 925.
He is not playable in 936 as he died in 927.

Bodin Vojislavljević: orthodox -> catholic explained in "Religion of 1018"

The (i guess) fantasy character "Milorad" leader of the neretljani pagans is renamed to "Uneslav" and his son to "Diodur" (mentioned as a co-leader). He was croatian and at least 38 years old because he raided carole in 846.

The white croatian (i guess) fantasy dynasty is renamed to "Horvat" because this is the old name for croatians and the fact that it is the most used surname in both croatia (almost exclusively northern croatia) AND slovakia AND 2nd in Hungary (slovenia too). New "Horvati" titular title for white croatians referring to the tribal population with an unique CoA after conversion.
The son "Ljudemisl" of the white croatian ruler "Gostomil" is renamed to "Laborec".

The vassals of the Balaton Duchy are now carantanian like in vanilla.

The leaders of the Bolohoveni Romanians are now slavic pagans until conversion.

Euphrosyne of Kiev: birth from 1140 to 1145
Miscellaneous: Does not yet contain every new change
  • Added/Edited names of historical characters, random names and dynasties
  • Better patronyms, prefixes and letters for south slavic cultures
  • The "Slavianska Vera" faith is renamed to "Svetoslavstvo"
  • The russian cultural name "Rusisku" is replaced with "Ruski"
  • The pommeranian cultural name "Vendi" is replaced with "Pòmòrski"
  • The Moravský/Karantánski/Arbëreshë cultures use their vanilla color codes
  • Syrmia is in the Balkan geographical region
Not implemented or debatable stuff:
  • Dynamic events to shrink the Horvatski culture in Poland for Poles and Galicia for Russians
  • Implement Severian and Ilmenian cultures and melt the provinces with Christian Norse rulers who hold any Rus-Kingdom into Russian
  • Rework Goljads
  • (Battle of Drava Event?)
  • Give Split and Trogir back to the Byzantine Empire and Nin to croatia (HIP bug in emf_borders.zck.txt)
Debatable (Probably never happening without better ideas/HIP help):
Better Hercegovina:

1. Adding c_polimlje to d_rashka because polimlje was a core of the raška duchy.
The serbian capital castle was "stari ras" which is located directly on the raska-polimlje border (maybe even wrongly located and actually inside polimlje).
2. Renaming Podgorje to Zahumlje
3. Adding Travunija to d_zahumlje
(4. Adding d_zahumlje to de jure k_bosnia after the breakdown of k_croatia)
5. Adding a new Podgorje Province for d_dioclea
Hercegovina.jpg
6. Adding new baronies from here to Podgorje, because none of the ingame baronies belong inside it.
(I already found good candidates)
7. Reworking history: Travunja independent in 867; Zahumlje to bosnia lategame etc.
Problems:
1. Coworking with the very shy SWMH team because I dont want to make new provinces/baronies and cause incompatibilities with other mods.
It has to be HIP official.

A "Bosnian Church" christian religion or heresy:
(explained in the "Bosnia" spoiler above)
Problems:
1. The regionally restricted name
2. The relevance
3. The flavor

New culture group:
Dalmatians, Albanians and Romanians should be in one culture group named for example "Indo-Balkanian" or "Eastern Romance" or "Balkano-Romance" or similar. Dalmatian was much closer to romanian than italian/venetian. Who does not believe this should listen to this:
Problems:
1. Venetians would not profit of dalmatia.
2. The relevance
It was very exhausting to list/mod all of this so pls dont be rude if you dont like it.
I do not want to offend anyone I just want accurate balkans for everyone.

IT IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED TO PLAY WITH THE:
"HIP - More Cultural Names" Submod
I contributed South Slavic localisations all over Eastern Europe
MCN_croatian.jpg
ALSO CHECK OUT:
"HIP - Renascentia Romanorum" Submod

UPDATE v8.2 for:
HIP Frosty3 2020-07-10
CK2 3.3
 

Attachments

Last edited:

greek strategos

Proud M&T Member
22 Badges
Mar 21, 2009
3.612
186
  • Crusader Kings II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
Very interesting. Keep it up!
 

TheDovahkiin97

Major
4 Badges
Apr 7, 2018
561
2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Very interesting. Keep it up!
I think that those are all the informations im aware of so I am hoping that HIP devs are going to implement them because I am no modder. (I just edited a savegame for the pictures)
However im glad that you like my work and that yet nobody disagrees.
 

EldarPanic

Colonel
59 Badges
Sep 30, 2012
891
1.217
  • Cities in Motion
  • Knights of Honor
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I disagree with the eastern romance culture group. The byzantine one works really well, the albanians were heavily influenced by the byzantines also the language they speak is not romance sure its influenced by it but it is not romance, so adding them in the same culture group as romanians and dalmatians when they dont really have much in common doesnt make sense.

PS: As for Nis I dont know if it was serbian or bulgarian. Sure its in modern day Serbia but I think it was bulgarian at that time, at least in the later start date.
 
Last edited:

TheDovahkiin97

Major
4 Badges
Apr 7, 2018
561
2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
I disagree with the eastern romance culture group. The byzantine one works really well, the albanians were heavily influenced by the byzantines also the language they speak is not romance sure its influenced by it but it is not romance, so adding them in the same culture group as romanians and dalmatians when they dont really have much in common donest make sense.
I just thought that the byzantine group is way too big and that albanian and romanian had nothing in common with greek but with dalmatian...
I had no better name in mind but eastern-romance you could name it anything like "Indo-Balkanian" or whatever.
To me dalmatian seems like having a distant relation to albanian and obviously to romanian. Or am I wrong?
 

EldarPanic

Colonel
59 Badges
Sep 30, 2012
891
1.217
  • Cities in Motion
  • Knights of Honor
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I just thought that the byzantine group is way too big and that albanian and romanian had nothing in common with greek but with dalmatian...
I had no better name in mind but eastern-romance you could name it anything like "Indo-Balkanian" or whatever.
To me dalmatian seems like having a distant relation to albanian and obviously to romanian. Or am I wrong?
Well sure Dalamtian is related to Romanian but so is Italian to Romanian or Italian to Dalmatian. The byzantine culture group works as it is, its big but then again so was its influence.

Also Bacau should be orthodox:
"Similarly to most urban centers in Moldavia, Bacău emerged on a ford that allowed water passage.[7] There is archaeological evidence of human settlement in the centre of Bacǎu (near Curtea Domneascǎ) dating from the 6th and the 7th centuries; these settlements were placed over older settlements from the 4th and the 5th centuries. A number of vessels found here are ornamented with crosses, hinting that the inhabitants were Christians.[8]"

Ps: The bolohoveni werent tengri they were slavic Romanians. Also another interesting thing that I found is that Iasi should be alan since the area was settled by alans. I dont know how relevant they were in the 1018 bookmark but it would be cool if the ruler of that province would be the last alan ruler in the area.( then again this is just for gameplay reasons and not much for the historical accuracy)

Scholars have different theories on the origin of the name "Iași".[16] Some argue that the name originates with the Sarmatian tribe Iazyges (of Iranian origin), one mentioned by Ovid as Latin: "Ipse vides onerata ferox ut ducata Iasyx/ Per media Histri plaustra bubulcus aquas" and "Iazyges et Colchi Metereaque turba Getaque/ Danubii mediis vix prohibentur aquis".[17]

A now lost inscription on a Roman milestone[18] found near Osijek, Croatia by Matija Petar Katančić in the 18th century, mentions the existence of a Jassiorum municipium,[19] or Municipium Dacorum-Iassiorum from other sources.[20]

Other explanations show that the name originated from the Iranian Alanic tribe of Jassi, having same origin with Yazyges tribes Jassic people. The Prut river was known as Alanus fluvius and the city as Forum Philistinorum.[21][22][23] From this population derived the plural of town name, "Iașii".

Another historian wrote that the Iasians lived among the Cumans and that they left the Caucasus after the first Mongolian campaign in the West, settling temporarily near the Prut. He asserts that the ethnic name of Jasz which is given to Iasians by Hungarians has been erroneously identified with the Jazyges; also he shows that the word jasz is a Slavic loan word.[24] The Hungarian name of the city (Jászvásár) literally means "Jassic Market"; the antiquated Romanian name, Târgul Ieșilor (and the once-favoured Iașii), and the German Jassenmarkt, may indicate the same meaning.
 
Last edited:

TheDovahkiin97

Major
4 Badges
Apr 7, 2018
561
2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
You are right about the bolohoveni and thats why i think that their province should be slavic pagan not orthodox because they would be too weak...

I dont think that alans outnumbered russians there but thats up to the HIP devs.

Regarding the culture group i would like to hear other opinions especially from the HIP devs but i got your point.
 

EldarPanic

Colonel
59 Badges
Sep 30, 2012
891
1.217
  • Cities in Motion
  • Knights of Honor
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
You are right about the bolohoveni and thats why i think that their province should be slavic pagan not orthodox because they would be too weak...
They own 2 provinces 1 is slavic and you just made the other tengri. If you want to keep them like this sure but historically they were slavic and bacau was orthodox also they adopted christianity not much later. (they also had vassals in the stripped area )
 
Last edited:

EldarPanic

Colonel
59 Badges
Sep 30, 2012
891
1.217
  • Cities in Motion
  • Knights of Honor
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete

TheDovahkiin97

Major
4 Badges
Apr 7, 2018
561
2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods

EldarPanic

Colonel
59 Badges
Sep 30, 2012
891
1.217
  • Cities in Motion
  • Knights of Honor
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
So the curret setup is right? Do you still think bacau should be orthodox? It would make them way too weak...
Yes they owned what they own in game and change their religion to slavic, bacau was orthodox but succeava will be slavic and it will balance it out. Also they had a tributary , the ingame province of Iasi. Problem is I dont know who owns that province since the Tivertsy are in a wrong place sure they owned a small part of northern Suceava and Iasi but, they were in Podolia instead of the Ulichs that currently own it, and the Ulichs owned the northern part of Aq-Su and Ozu.
Sure the map is from an older time but I dont know if they moved more south after the bulgars passed through or they stayed in their original place. A compromise would be to let them stay there and be a tributary to the Bolhoveni.
 

EldarPanic

Colonel
59 Badges
Sep 30, 2012
891
1.217
  • Cities in Motion
  • Knights of Honor
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
In 867 they own only bacau
Hmm ok I guess I can make a compromise for gameplay purposes, but only for 867.Also if were talking about the 867 bookmark make the chief of Broutos alan and the culture of the province alan too.
 

TheDovahkiin97

Major
4 Badges
Apr 7, 2018
561
2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
PS: As for Nis I dont know if it was serbian or bulgarian. Sure its in modern day Serbia but I think it was bulgarian at that time, at least in the later start date.
I just read that and i dont think so. Torlaks are serbs today and if you consider that everything on the balkans moved westwards a bit when ottomans invaded serbs were definitely this far east back then maybe even farther.
Sure bulgarians ruled there but i dont believe that their culture/language outnumbered serbs. Again Mountainous serbian moravia =/= bulgar nomads. If this region had less mountains torlaks would be bulgarians today.
 
Last edited:

Ese Khan

MM Dev Team
6 Badges
Jan 2, 2009
1.705
469
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
Great initiative! If your eventual agenda indeed is to transfer these changes to SWMH, I would like to suggest that you read beyond Wikipedia and check academic sources. I'm aware that you will end up having to make either/or choice because you are dealing province culture and religion, but the SWMH team typically goes through multiple sources to back up its setup. I personally use Wikipedia as either a starting point or a last resort, never as a sole source for a particular piece of information.

Your job is to make the best possible deduction based on various research up til now & confines of CK2. I personally believe that going through works written by people who literally make their living by engaging with others who do likewise will make the work more convincing and engaging ;)
 

TheDovahkiin97

Major
4 Badges
Apr 7, 2018
561
2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
never as a sole source
You are making it sound like my teachers in 5th grade when wikipedia was indeed a bad source. For today i can say that wikipedia is a good *compilation* of multiple sources. If you write unsourced bullshit into wikipedia your stuff will get deleted immediately.
So i could copy you the sources linked in the wikipedia articles and you wouldnt even notice.
My question is what sources did you guys read when building the current setup because i believe my setup is way more accurate. However thank you very much for your statement i am glad that my post reached the HIP headquarters