[submod] Apostolic and Syriac Churches

[Toldi]

Hi guys!

On the beginning I must say, that i love Your job on this mod and all submods. This is my first post on this forum, I have no experience in modding so I am looking for opinion of experts.

Lately I've been enjoying games as western Christian faiths: Apostolic Church, Western and Eastern Syriac Church. It is challenging to survive as Christian in muslim middle-east, but there is no other target than survival itself. Some of this churches just lost connection with western Christianity during Islamic invasion on middle-east. Some of them recreated connection with the Pope during crusade times (Syriac Maronite Church: “The Maronites assisted the crusaders and affirmed their affiliation with the Holy See of Rome in 1182. To commemorate their communion, Maronite Patriarch Youseff Al Jirjisi received the crown and staff, marking his patriarchal authority, from Pope Paschal II in 1100 AD.” source-wiki)

My point is to create some target-decisions for those faiths. I thought about few decisions for Apostolic and Syriac:

• “Ask western Christianity for help” – if Apostolic or Syriac ruler is under Islamic liege, bordering with any independent Catholic ruler, he can ask this ruler for help to gain independence. If he agrees, it begins independence war.

• “Ask eastern Christianity for help” – if Apostolic or Syriac ruler is under Islamic liege, bordering with any independent Orthodox/Paulician ruler, he can ask this ruler for help to gain independence. If he agrees, it begins independence war.

• “Convert to western Christianity” – if Apostolic or Syriac independent ruler border with any independent Catholic ruler, he can take this decision to convert on Catholic faith.

• “Convert to eastern Christianity” – if Apostolic or Syriac independent ruler border with any independent Orthodox/Paulician ruler, he can take this decision to convert on Orthodox/Paulician faith.

• “Recreate connection with the Pope” - if Apostolic or Syriac independent ruler border with any independent Catholic ruler and control at least 2 holly sites of his faith, he can ask pope to become head of his religion.

• “Create own papacy” – if Apostolic or Syriac independent ruler control at least 4 holly sites of his faith, he can create Apostolic/Syriac independent papacy in middle-east region (preferably in Antioche). Apostolic/Syriac pope would work same way as Catholic pope.

• “Revenge on Islam” – decision similar to creation of Outremer Empire for Catholics. If Apostolic or Syriac independent ruler controls whole middle-eastern region, create Apostolic Empire / Syriac Empire with all middle-eastern kingdoms as de-jure lands. Destroy Mosque in Mecca. Destroy all existing caliph titles.

What do You guys think? Is it possible to create few decisions like that? Is it cool idea?

I am waiting for Your opinions.

Greeting

Me

 

[ifail]

I just played Basil to Rome as patriachy of paulikian faith almost no events at all nothing to do but a hardcode of I can crusade and holy anyone is a plus. Also any ideas for TONDRAKIANS? tthat one is probobly my next Basil to ROME game it says rulers can have concubines?

 

[Metaluis90]

Very interesting idea, I'll always welcome anything that enhance gameplay of the less favoured religions in game.

I have a question, could you further explain what the "“Recreate connection with the Pope” would actually do?
Does it means you will become catholic?
I don't think it's possible, from a modding perspective, to have a religious head from other religion, unless that religion head title is given to the pope. But, hey, who am I to tell what it is and what it isn't possible from a modding perspective.

 

[Toldi]

First of all: thanks for your reply Metaluis90! I am very happy that anyone is interested in this idea!

I've heard, that modding religions is very challenging. Is it possible, to give the pope titular title "Apostolic pope" inherited with all other titles by the next pope, so the pope stays catholic, but whole apostolic church refers to him as to head of religion. In this way:

• Apostolic church is separate faith with the same religious head as Catholic church.
• Apostolic faith have it's own, separate religion authority.
• Apostolic priests pays tax to the pope.
• Apostolic rulers can ask pope for favors like divorce, claims, funds, etc.
• Apostolic rulers can be excommunicated by the pope.

But also in this way:

• Apostolic rulers can't participate in catholic crusades.

So we got historical immersion of apostolic church recreating connection with western Christianity without loosing it’s own traditions. Simple converting them to Catholic faith would be unfair, because they would just “blend” into western Christianity in game without any trace.

I think, it might be cool idea, but I have no modding experience and very little time to learn it by myself. What do you think about that?


Greeting

Me

 

[ArmoMoose]

It sounds nice to expand the Eastern Churches a bit more.In my opinion, you should expand the Coptic church alongside with them. I'm not sure how accurate installing the Pope in Rome as your religious head would be historically. Didn't the Eastern Churches completely deny the Catholic Pope's authority? I know there are Assyrian Catholics in modern times, but this happened later,around the 17th century I believe. I like the idea of empowering your Patriarch and giving him the same amount of power as the Catholic Pope, I do think only 2 Holy Sites, independence and a strong moral authority should be necessary though. Because I would prefer to be able to make use of Crusades when I'm still small and struggling, if I already control Antioch, Merdo, Baghdad and Jerusalem, I'm probably strong enough to get the rest of the land I want without a crusade. Just an idea. I would also like to have a option which allows you to resettle Eastern Christians in your land, maybe they come out of hiding, or those still living in Muslim lands migrate to yours, something like that. (This option could be used in all the Eastern Faiths, ressetling Armenians in Turkish owned lands, Assyrians and Copts in Arabian owned lands.) It would also be interesting if Syriacs have a special choice which allows them to send missionaries to the East - India, Persia, Pagan Steppe Lords, etc. Because a important mission to the Eastern Church was to spread Christianity as far East as possible. This will allow you to get some religious allies, where you usually have none. I play with a mod that allows you to unite the Eastern Christianity, compatibility with the mod or the inclusion of such a feature would be nice. Good luck!

Edit: Oh yes! And I feel like "Getting revenge on Islam" is silly. I feel like historically, this would never have been an interest to anyone. Maybe you could instead install a religious tax system like the Muslims did for so many hundreds of years, or even decide to live in peace with the Muslims? Which removes the negative opinion modifier or something?

 

[Mikeboy]

For the Maronites, given their provinces seem to be getting converted much quicker than they should be historically, I think it would be worth boosting their moral authority, perhaps giving them a boon that is half the RA of the catholic church (currently it tends to sit at 30%, so with a Catholic RA of 100% it would be 80% most of the time).

 

[Toldi]

Thanks for Your answers, it makes me feel really enthusiastic!

About connection between Syriac Church and Catholic Church: I remember somewhat about it from my family trip to Lebanon and Syria (many, many, years ago), than from history books. Wikipedia is not perfect source of historical knowledge, but there is something about that. I can’t paste link to wikipedia article, so I shall copy just small fragments.

[...] Secure in their mountain strongholds, the Maronites were re-discovered in the mountains near Tripoli, Lebanon, by Raymond of Toulouse on his way to conquer Jerusalem in the Great Crusade of 1096–1099. [...]
[...] The Maronites assisted the crusaders and affirmed their affiliation with the Holy See of Rome in 1182. To commemorate their communion, Maronite Patriarch Youseff Al Jirjisi received the crown and staff, marking his patriarchal authority, from Pope Paschal II in 1100 AD. In 1131, Maronite Patriarch Gregorios Al-Halati received letters from Pope Innocent II in which the Papacy recognized the authority of the Patriarchate of Antioch. Patriarch Jeremias II Al-Amshitti (1199–1230) became the first Maronite Patriarch to visit Rome when he attended the Fourth Council of the Lateran in 1215. [...]
From english article “Maronite Church”

About Coptic Church – it would be also cool to add some flavor for them. Modern Coptic Church is seen as “Orthodox”. They call patriarch of Alexandria a Coptic Pope, so maybe we could give Western Churches option to appoint own head of religion after archiving high religion authority and controlling 4 out of fife holly sites.

It would be cool to create some events /decisions referring to this episode in history. Current ideas:

· Event for Catholic Crusaders in Holly Land “Christians already here?” – it could give possibility to call Syriac and Apostolic characters to join crusade in exchange for independence after success. Liberated lands would be tributary states of Jerusalem to protect them from being reconquered easily by Muslim states.

· Similar event giving Coptic characters option to join crusade for Egypt and become independent, tributary states of newly founded Christian Kingdom of Egypt.

· Decision for relatively strong independent Apostolic / Syriac / Coptic character controlling few (maybe 2) holly sites to recreate connection with the Pope – setting pope as head of own religion described in previous post. Also this decision could give permanent bonus to religious authority (around +30%) to increase low authority of western churches.

· Also another decision for very strong independent Apostolic / Syriac / Coptic character controlling 4 out of 5 holly sites to create own Papacy. Own Pope (for ex. Patriarch of Antioch as Pope of Syriac Church or Patriarch of Alexandria as Pope of Coptic Church) would give permanent religious authority boost (similar to Catholic “Pope in Rome”) and maybe give some debuff for Orthodox religious authority.

This two ways of dealing with religious matter for Western Churches would be interesting.

I must admit, “Revenge” proposition was silly, I was proposing some late game targets