Hi, I have noticed a few comments on how effective submarines are but I have found they just get sunk all the time. So can you suggest the ideal wolf pack size and the make up of patrol vs strike?
Thanks
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Submarines
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For convoy raiding you don't need "patrol" and "strike".
Here are some tips for Germany:
Production
- refit the starting sub fleet with more modern torpedoes and engine
- rush the 1940 sub with snorkels and sub designer
- build some cruiser sub minelayers with 2 minelaying slots and the tech that boosts sub minelaying. Subs have longer reach and lower visibility than destroyers and thus are great minelayers.
Operations
- Doenitz as admiral and upgrade his traits frequently!
- no-go zones: Channel and the other two around Britain
- main hunting zones: where you can ensure 100% air superiority and 200 naval bombers, like Bay of Biscay.
- mine the waters you're hunting in!!!
Against the a.i. your wolfpacks will not only sink thousands of convoys but also the entire Royal and US navy.
I had this crazy screenshot in another thread where I had sunk some 3000 ships in 1942 alone IIRC.
Here are some tips for Germany:
Production
- refit the starting sub fleet with more modern torpedoes and engine
- rush the 1940 sub with snorkels and sub designer
- build some cruiser sub minelayers with 2 minelaying slots and the tech that boosts sub minelaying. Subs have longer reach and lower visibility than destroyers and thus are great minelayers.
Operations
- Doenitz as admiral and upgrade his traits frequently!
- no-go zones: Channel and the other two around Britain
- main hunting zones: where you can ensure 100% air superiority and 200 naval bombers, like Bay of Biscay.
- mine the waters you're hunting in!!!
Against the a.i. your wolfpacks will not only sink thousands of convoys but also the entire Royal and US navy.
I had this crazy screenshot in another thread where I had sunk some 3000 ships in 1942 alone IIRC.
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Is that recent? I see through intel that the AI will reroute convoys if they are taking loses so the UK won't use the Bay of Biscay. You need to cover the 3 zones from Greenland to Gibraltar.
How many subs you use per task force? I have 5 packs of 4 subs each and I sunk 100 convoys, but British still have 700.... so it looks hopeless now, maybe I need to build more dockyards?
Refit interwar subs with mines, they are useless for raiding unless under a huge air cover. 1936 subs are also weak. I simply build only 1940s subs with radar 1 and my loses are very small. I'm still far from my objective of starving Britain but that's a different thing.
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As another poster said, you have to be aware of the naval terrain, just like you do land terrain. "Shallow Seas" impose a +100% visibility penalty, which is huge. On the other hand, subs get a -15% visibility bonus when in "Deep Oceans" (although you get a speed penalty in that terrain, so your subs are more vulnerable in that respect).
I'd also echo the suggestion of refitting your SUB1's to minelayers. I think laying mines is critical, not because the mines themselves will sink ships but because they'll slow enemy ships down, thus making them easier to hit. Note that it's important to consider naval terrain when deciding whether a sea zone is worth mining because "Deep Oceans" reduce the chance of a ship being hit by a mine.
Sub1 and Sub2 are relatively ineffective compared to Sub3 and Sub4 because convoys have a HP of 60, which means that you want your torpedo attack to be at or above 60 so that you can one-shot kill those convoys. Sub1 and Sub2 can only be fitted with 2x torpedo modules, which is either 14 torpedo attack (Sub Torpedo 1), 16 (Sub Torpedo 2), or 22 (Sub Torpedo 3). That is, the maximum torpedo attack (without additional tech bonuses) is 44*. On the other hand, Sub 3 gives you 3 modules for which you can use torpedoes. So if you equip your Sub3 with 3xTorp3, then you'll have sufficient torpedo attack to one shot kill all enemy convoys that you hit (i.e., 3x22=66). Sub3 with 3xTorp3 plus best radar is incredibly effective (and fuel efficient) at convoy raiding when deployed in "Deep Oceans" terrain. Meanwhile, use those otherwise obsolete Sub1 as minelayers.
*-if you research Sub4, then you get access to Sub Torpedo 4, which has 28 attack. 2x28=56, which obviously is less than 60. However, you can also increase this by 20% via research to make it exceed 60 (i.e., 1.2x2x28=67.2). But if you're far enough along in the game to be researching Sub4, then you probably have the NIC such that you don't care about the NIC cost of Sub2 vs Sub3 or whatever. I rarely build Sub4 because they cost chromium, unlike Sub3 which only require steel. In my mind, Sub3 is really the sweet spot in terms of ROI because you get the three torpedo slots plus the visibility bonus if you use that designer.
I'd also echo the suggestion of refitting your SUB1's to minelayers. I think laying mines is critical, not because the mines themselves will sink ships but because they'll slow enemy ships down, thus making them easier to hit. Note that it's important to consider naval terrain when deciding whether a sea zone is worth mining because "Deep Oceans" reduce the chance of a ship being hit by a mine.
Sub1 and Sub2 are relatively ineffective compared to Sub3 and Sub4 because convoys have a HP of 60, which means that you want your torpedo attack to be at or above 60 so that you can one-shot kill those convoys. Sub1 and Sub2 can only be fitted with 2x torpedo modules, which is either 14 torpedo attack (Sub Torpedo 1), 16 (Sub Torpedo 2), or 22 (Sub Torpedo 3). That is, the maximum torpedo attack (without additional tech bonuses) is 44*. On the other hand, Sub 3 gives you 3 modules for which you can use torpedoes. So if you equip your Sub3 with 3xTorp3, then you'll have sufficient torpedo attack to one shot kill all enemy convoys that you hit (i.e., 3x22=66). Sub3 with 3xTorp3 plus best radar is incredibly effective (and fuel efficient) at convoy raiding when deployed in "Deep Oceans" terrain. Meanwhile, use those otherwise obsolete Sub1 as minelayers.
*-if you research Sub4, then you get access to Sub Torpedo 4, which has 28 attack. 2x28=56, which obviously is less than 60. However, you can also increase this by 20% via research to make it exceed 60 (i.e., 1.2x2x28=67.2). But if you're far enough along in the game to be researching Sub4, then you probably have the NIC such that you don't care about the NIC cost of Sub2 vs Sub3 or whatever. I rarely build Sub4 because they cost chromium, unlike Sub3 which only require steel. In my mind, Sub3 is really the sweet spot in terms of ROI because you get the three torpedo slots plus the visibility bonus if you use that designer.
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This - I've great success, ironically, as the UK by using surface ships to sow mines in the North Sea up to the Danish Straits, and deploying my subs in the deep waters of the Atlantic to slaughter German convoys.
Yeah, that's the way!
In addition:
As Germany I only build subs; nothing else. In the Atlantic you can cut of the UK from the most supplies by deploying submarine-taskforces in 4 or 5 sea-zones; from Greenland down to the west-African coast. ( I normally put 30 subs in one task-force ).
But I do not mining the seas. In my opinion, mining in HOI4 is totally unrealistic.
In real life at those times:
- Mines do not differentiate between enemy and friend.
- Mines laying on the bottom of the sea are useless in waters deeper than 100m ( or even lower depths ). Their magnetic "trigger" wouldn't react, because of that "distance" to the surface.
- Mines with anchors were only deployed in coastal areas and sea-zones with water depth smaller than ~ 300m. Both axis and allies made trials to deploy mines in water depth ~ 500-600m but not with much success. The problem was and is to keep the mine in a specific depth so that it could be "hit" by ship. And with longer chains due to greater water-depth, factors like sea state and changing "power" of ocean-current have significant greater effects on the mine-depth )
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You're of course correct with this - I justify it on the basis that my side would have charts of the mined areas. But it is overpowered and unrealistic.
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Of course you need to cover the other zones as well.
However, what you can protect by naval bombers, you should protect by naval bombers.
Apparently I had sunk 5356 convoys in 1942 with a mere 53 submarines in this recent game. I typically create a template of 8 subs for convenience reasons, probably smaller stacks are better, but I'm lazy.
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I recently also switched to U-Boot only with 1 type for each patrol, minelaying and convoy raider.
However, I need to build 1 super-heavy battleship for reasons of grandeur and it actually is a nice complement to the starting Kriegsmarine.
Refit the surface ships, add 1 super-heavy called Bismarck and don't forget to assign the flagship status (or was it called "pride of the fleet"?) to it.
Typically my super-heavy BB sinks some 30-40 ships and assists in an equal number of kills.
#mines
I hate that added micro, but as long as it's in the game, I tend to utilize it to maximum effect.
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Yep.
In vanilla, a sea zone choked with mines is a death trap for the opposing side even when the ships don't hit mines. And submarine minelayers are pretty damn effective in vanilla. So much so that even if I'm not running a submarine strategy at all, I tend to convert all the old subs to minelayers in lieu of surface ships.
And since you can mine anywhere once you are in any kind of war, you can horribly abuse them to do things like mine the coastal waters of the Philippines as Japan. :sigh: I don't do that, but it's a thing that can happen.
What's funny is that basic minelaying is so effective, I've never actually tried using the advance minelaying techs, like the ones that let STRs lay mines and let planes sweep them.
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I would not mess around with upgrading sub I, just use the 18 sub I to raid the baltics when attacking Poland.
With exp from training, equip sub II with eng II Torp II and Minelayer, by the start of the war you'll have around 50, mine North Atlantic Ridge, Denmark Strait and Iberian Coast.
Reserach and build Sub III in 1940, put them on "high risk" in the 3 mined zones. There is nothing the UK can do against your sub III. You'll sink their DD, CL, CA, BB and CV. You can also mine and raid the med, african coast and even in the far east around Malaya, Indochina..... Hawaii.
I also won't mess with the cruiser subs, asking for docking rights around the world solves range problems.
If you'd like to do Sea Lion, mine the channel guarded by Fighters and some NavBo II to sink the rest of the UK Fleet.
Be aware, by using SUB III you'll kill your own fun, becuase the AI can't handle them.
With exp from training, equip sub II with eng II Torp II and Minelayer, by the start of the war you'll have around 50, mine North Atlantic Ridge, Denmark Strait and Iberian Coast.
Reserach and build Sub III in 1940, put them on "high risk" in the 3 mined zones. There is nothing the UK can do against your sub III. You'll sink their DD, CL, CA, BB and CV. You can also mine and raid the med, african coast and even in the far east around Malaya, Indochina..... Hawaii.
I also won't mess with the cruiser subs, asking for docking rights around the world solves range problems.
If you'd like to do Sea Lion, mine the channel guarded by Fighters and some NavBo II to sink the rest of the UK Fleet.
Be aware, by using SUB III you'll kill your own fun, becuase the AI can't handle them.
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I agree that mining should be impossible in deep ocean and easily -50% in ocean zones, but mines were responsible for one of the major Italian victories Vs UK the CL Neptune and a destroyer both sunk in a minefield while chasing Italians. The field was new and the Italians knew its position but the British didn't (despite all their spy stuff). So they should remain vital in shallow waters.
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What's funny is that basic minelaying is so effective, I've never actually tried using the advance minelaying techs, like the ones that let STRs lay mines and let planes sweep them.
To other players. Its good to remember there is a 1940 Tech in Mine Warfare that gives +50% mine evasion. Basically making mines useless on Deep Ocean (100% evasion) and greatly reducing its efficiency.
Its a must have for countrys like japan and UK in MP games where people abuse mines.
With this it only becomes of a matter of finding the SUb III on deep ocean.
UK can do that in the atlantic. But do cost a little. Just gonna quickly explain how for those that don´t know.
-> Building Airfield and Radar on Azores (50pp only) + Bermuda should give quite a bit of ship detection bonus.
Heavy Fighters and/or tacs there can also Cover 3 Deep Sea Zones and just a few can easily give them way more than 15% Detection to offset the deep sea ocean visibility bonus. (around 5 factorys from 37+ is more than enough, just need a small but steady supply as they are not gonna fight any air resistance there +2points in reliability and not even accidents are gonna happen).
-> Mid Atlantic is a "problem" because you do need to build carriers for this and that "cost" 5 NIC.
200 Naval Fighter II with +3 range upgrades = +5% NAval detection on deep ocean. (Just place carrier with no mission on the middle of the region to save fuel).
Naval bombers II with range upgrade works even better but those demand extra research ^^.
PS: Doctrine fleet in being have Sub detection Bonus for all ships. +50% to Carriers , +10% to DD`s and finally +15% Cruisers
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I think, it's a bit different:
1. There is a 1938 tech called "degaussing" with this effect:
- naval_mines_effect_reduction = 0.5
The "naval_mines_effect" is defined by this
- naval_mines_effect = {
naval_accidents_chance = 0.15
naval_speed_factor = -0.8
naval_invasion_penalty = 0.5
}
2. In deep ocean you have a 50% mine evasion.
Result: With degaussing-tech in deep ocean both scenarios could happen with 50/50 chance:
A) you succeed in eveasion or
B) you "hit" the mine by having 7.5% chance to get an accident
and 100% chance of 40% speed-reduction
and 100% chance of 25% invasion-penalty.
Those effects apply to each mined strategic region, scaled according to the quantity of mines.
This is my understanding of those effects.
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I run some tests and the tech clearly gives +50% Dodge to mines.
Its really bad luck to be hit by one in deep ocean if you have the tech.
but looks like both dodges don´t add or multiply each other.
It took months for me to lose 2 of 20 light cruisers (With no repair order) on a patrol in 3 deep ocean zones with 1000 mines.
And that with germany having 1944 mine tech for +60% dmg.
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There's probably some kind of minimum percent change to hit a mine regardless. Not unlike the minimum hit chance in naval combat.