Submarine Torpedo and AA armament should be upgradable

[unity100]

I noticed that the submarines were not upgradeable in these aspects. this is an incorrect implementation. its nothing like the battleship situation either - ie, one battleship getting an upgrade over the course of entire history of battleships either ; submarines were regularly updated in their torpedo armament.

in fact, torpedoes were designed to fit in the majority of the torpedo using vehicles in a navy. ie, submarines of various types, destroyers, fast attack craft, torpedo boats. its even as such today. everything has to fit in the standard tube navy has.

not that every torpedo was usable by all submarine types, however, for the majority of them this was true.

from donitz's memoirs :

Admiral Doenitz's memoirs (Cassel Military Paperback) discusses in some detail problems that were found in torpedoes before 1942, especially the Norwegian campaign - failure of the pistol to detonate at low angles of incidence and poor depth control in G7a and G7e (leaking balance chambers) It looks like until the magnetic pistol (Pi2) was introduced the problems were not resolved until some time in 1942. He gives some interesting figures for January to July 1942. An analysis of 816 hits, 40% were sunk with one torpedo, 38% required two or more before they sank and 22% escaped after being hit with between one and four torpedoes. This was attributed to a lack of an efficient magnetic pistol and this he attributed to a lack of research on torpedoed between the wars.

as can be seen from this example, replacing a physical pistol with a magnetic pistol on torpedoes does not require building an entirely new submarine. shouldnt either.

neither would the introduction of any other targeting system that is built into the torpedo should, like acoustic torpedoes.

same goes for AA armament. after all, aa armament is an attachment on varying platforms on submarines. you can fit a 2 x 40 mm bofors into a place you were able to fit a single 40 mm bofors, generally it doesnt take any noticeable additional space at all. of course not valid for any armament, ie you couldnt fit in an entire flak to the same place or would it be viable. but still, upgrading should be possible for them too, i believe.

more examples can be gathered, but its rather late in hours and i dont have time.

 

[unmerged(141369)]

On the other hand, you could argue that Submarine Torpedo Tech does not refer to the torpedoes as such, but to the torpedo equipment inside the submarine; i.e. a more modern submarine would have more tubes, better and faster loading technology, more and better arranged storage space in order to carry more torpedoes etc. A better torpedo tech would not lead to improved older submarines because it would not be practical to revise the entire torpedo system of a boat.

Improvements in the technology of the torpedo itself would be reflected by technologies like acoustic / electric torpedo - and these technologies improve older submarines without the need to upgrade them under the current system, so you may say that your argument regarding torps is valid and has already been implemented

Regarding AA, I was under the impression that it's already upgradeable?

 

[unmerged(162341)]

Evolution of subs in RL gone in a direction where AA became obsolete while subs became more stealth basicaly by becaming more and more capable for long operations all under water wand without relieing on perissope.
German XXI model is first semi-modern subs that had practicaly no AA guns becouse it operated for days under water.

If I am correct tech three sumulates biger and better AA guns for subs all the way during their evolution so in 1945 they soposed to have some massive AA capability while in real life subs by then lost allmost all AA eqipement becopuse it was no more neeeded becouse of change in nature of submarine operations.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

As for me, I agree that subs should have upgradeable torpedos and AA. They are quite underpowered anyway, so at least grant em that small wish...

About subs & AA:

Dunno about modern submarines, but the XXI defiantly had 2x20mm twin AA.

Ingame the increased AA capacity simulates better guns & stabilizers used on subs (20mm twin/quad, 37mm AA).

 

[Danevang]

It is easy to mod this yourself. Just open the Technologies folder, and edit the Naval Technology.txt

Find submarine_antiaircraft and submarine_torpedoes

submarine_antiaircraft = {
submarine = {
air_attack = 0.25
air_defence = 1.00
}


allow = {
submarine_technology = 1
}


research_bonus_from = {
submarine_engineering = 0.3
submarine_practical = 0.6
sealane_interdiction_doctrine = 0.1
}

on_completion = submarine_engineering

difficulty = 1
start_year = 1918
first_offset = 1934 #2nd model is from 1936
additional_offset = 2 #one new every 2 year
folder = smallship_folder
can_upgrade = no
}

Change the

can_upgrade = no

in both AA and torpedoes to

can_upgrade = yes

Done, now it's upgradable.

 

[unity100]

On the other hand, you could argue that Submarine Torpedo Tech does not refer to the torpedoes as such, but to the torpedo equipment inside the submarine; i.e. a more modern submarine would have more tubes, better and faster loading technology, more and better arranged storage space in order to carry more torpedoes etc. A better torpedo tech would not lead to improved older submarines because it would not be practical to revise the entire torpedo system of a boat.

Improvements in the technology of the torpedo itself would be reflected by technologies like acoustic / electric torpedo - and these technologies improve older submarines without the need to upgrade them under the current system, so you may say that your argument regarding torps is valid and has already been implemented

Regarding AA, I was under the impression that it's already upgradeable?

still same.

no nation could afford building their entire submarine navy from scratch with the advances.

even today every contract that is opened for bid requires whatever built has to be compatible with and fit inside the existing naval vessels.

and remember, we are talking about mainly electronic technology here. or acoustic, or whatever. the stuff the kind that changes the effectiveness of a weapon, not the size or the nature of it.

 

[TheLoneGunman]

As long as adding additional AA slows your sub down more while it's submerged I'd have no issue with it.

 

[Alex_brunius]

and remember, we are talking about mainly electronic technology here. or acoustic, or whatever. the stuff the kind that changes the effectiveness of a weapon, not the size or the nature of it.

Acoustic torpedoes (previously electric torp) secret weapons tech are already upgradable on submarines in HoI3. Its been this way since 1.0 IIRC.

Like BlueAngel argues however there is so much more that cant be upgraded or retrofitted but still increases a submarines offensive power. For example the XXIs advanced reloading system that improved reloading speed by 6 times!! or targeting and firing systems.

Right now the Secret weapon tech however represents more sea attack increase for the submarine then 15 years of torpedo research. So most of the torpedo damage is already upgradable for submarines.

 

[unity100]

there is also an issue with not being able to upgrade a battleship's guns or engine though :

during the pre-dreadnought era, many battleships were upgraded. that era was an era of fast innovation, and everything was constantly changing. therefore instead of writing off a battleship you completed 5 years ago because of new innovations, you took the effort to upgrade them.

in pre ww2 era, the development slowed. the guns of bships already reached massive size, nearing the 400 mm range. but more importantly, carriers have arrived, and made the position of battleship a questionable one. your bship could deliver 400 mm shells to some km range, but aircraft could deliver bigger ones over hundreds of kilometers, and for much cheaper steel resource cost. therefore the development of battleship has stopped.

however, during the period in 1930s when the fate of battleship wasnt so decided, humongous battleship designs dwarfing the previous ones were already in progress. yamato, missouri, and similar. had the carrier not arrived, they would probably be worked on, and received upgrades.

and if im not mistaken there was an aircraft carrier upgraded to a nuclear engine ... what was its name tho

 

[xtfoster]

there is also an issue with not being able to upgrade a battleship's guns or engine though :

during the pre-dreadnought era, many battleships were upgraded. that era was an era of fast innovation, and everything was constantly changing. therefore instead of writing off a battleship you completed 5 years ago because of new innovations, you took the effort to upgrade them.

in pre ww2 era, the development slowed. the guns of bships already reached massive size, nearing the 400 mm range. but more importantly, carriers have arrived, and made the position of battleship a questionable one. your bship could deliver 400 mm shells to some km range, but aircraft could deliver bigger ones over hundreds of kilometers, and for much cheaper steel resource cost. therefore the development of battleship has stopped.

however, during the period in 1930s when the fate of battleship wasnt so decided, humongous battleship designs dwarfing the previous ones were already in progress. yamato, missouri, and similar. had the carrier not arrived, they would probably be worked on, and received upgrades.

and if im not mistaken there was an aircraft carrier upgraded to a nuclear engine ... what was its name tho

All of these "upgrades" that you are talking about were rebuilds, not upgrades.

The Italian Battleships took 4 years to "refit"
The Japanese Battlecruisers took 2 years to "refit"
The British Battlecruisers took 2 years to "refit"
The US/Japanese ships converted to Carriers were done DURING construction and weren't refits.

I can't find a mention of any CARRIER converted to nuclear power.

 

[vbal]

The AA should really be upgradeable. It was done in a great extense on VII and IX subs. In the beginning of the war the VIIB boats often had on single 20mm AA arment, but later, 1943 onwards, they could fit 3x2 20mm and one 37mm on a VIIC, and even more on the IXC/D.

4 special made VIIC boats was even construct to act as "Aircraft traps", looking just like an easytarget sub, but being constructed with 2 22mm quatro (thats 8!) machine guns and a 3.6cm.

A bit off topic, but i love this subject

 

[cliffordhud]

there is also an issue with not being able to upgrade a battleship's guns or engine though :

during the pre-dreadnought era, many battleships were upgraded. that era was an era of fast innovation, and everything was constantly changing. therefore instead of writing off a battleship you completed 5 years ago because of new innovations, you took the effort to upgrade them.

in pre ww2 era, the development slowed. the guns of bships already reached massive size, nearing the 400 mm range. but more importantly, carriers have arrived, and made the position of battleship a questionable one. your bship could deliver 400 mm shells to some km range, but aircraft could deliver bigger ones over hundreds of kilometers, and for much cheaper steel resource cost. therefore the development of battleship has stopped.

I am not sure that pre-deadnoughts were upgraded - there may have been some changes in armament - but it was not common - engines were fundamentally fixed for life - the ship was built arond them. The rapid changes in technology were reflected in the succeeding classes - as the improved arms armour and engines were incorporated in the newest design.

Royal Navy Battleships went through a bewildering spectrum of designs between 1860 and 1895. After that the basic form stablised - 12k-15k tons, 4 - 12" guns, a variety of secondary weapons - mostly 6" plus some light ones. In the last couple of classes (1904-1906) the secondary armaments became heavier - 9.2". In practice these heavy secondarys confused the spotting of the fall of shot - as the splash was almost the same size as the 12" spalsh".

Regarding Engines - even when turbines were deemed reliable enough for big ships there was no attempt to upgrade the old triple expansion reciprocating engine - it was simply too much trouble. Better spend the money on new ships.

 

[unity100]

All of these "upgrades" that you are talking about were rebuilds, not upgrades.

The Italian Battleships took 4 years to "refit"
The Japanese Battlecruisers took 2 years to "refit"
The British Battlecruisers took 2 years to "refit"
The US/Japanese ships converted to Carriers were done DURING construction and weren't refits.

no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Taiyō

similarly :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Chūyō

both were of the same class, and they were commissioned first for troop transportation, and then converted to carriers.

in the subject of 'refit', you dont get permission and funding from parliament to just remove 400 mm guns on a ship and then put in 420 mm ones. these plans are done to enhance ships whatever way you can, as much as the budget you think you can acquire from the government.

I can't find a mention of any CARRIER converted to nuclear power.

as i said, i dont remember well. it might have been a carrier, might have been a submarine, or may have been a capital ship of another sort. if i can find it, i will post it.

 

[unity100]

I am not sure that pre-deadnoughts were upgraded - there may have been some changes in armament - but it was not common - engines were fundamentally fixed for life - the ship was built arond them. The rapid changes in technology were reflected in the succeeding classes - as the improved arms armour and engines were incorporated in the newest design.

there are some, particularly turret upgrades, but i didnt save the urls while i was reading them months ago because i didnt think anyone would need them. if i find them ill post them. but the below would serve as a good example itself, queen elizabeth class bships receiving major upgrades in between 2 world wars :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth_class_battleship#Between_the_Wars

also florida class us bships :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_class_battleship#Machinery

 

[krieger11b]

The only thing I would say about upgradeable AA is I know see kind of the issue they had as it was a grey area. Sure you could upgrade the guns a bit, but a Type II sub carried at most a dual 20mm cannon as that was all there was room for, nothing like the beast you could make with a Type IX.

As far as torpedoes, yeah definitely upgradeable. They were basically all the same size for each nation, though ship torpedoes were often different than sub ones.

It seems that the only nation that no reliability problems was Japan (ironically since nothing else they built was reliable), they were really the only nation to do serious testing and development in the interwar years, the Long Lance Torpedoes was something to be feared. Though I don't know if they were on subs or just surface ships, they were bigger than your average WW2 torpedo, and a lot faster and better range, and great reliability of detonation.

 

[xtfoster]

no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Taiyō

similarly :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Chūyō

both were of the same class, and they were commissioned first for troop transportation, and then converted to carriers.

OK, I'll give you these, but even then both were Merchant Ships (i.e., either TP or Convoy), which can't be individually built in HOI3, so you wouldn't have a ship to convert them from...

 

[unmerged(15623)]

no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Taiyō

similarly :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Chūyō

both were of the same class, and they were commissioned first for troop transportation, and then converted to carriers.

in the subject of 'refit', you dont get permission and funding from parliament to just remove 400 mm guns on a ship and then put in 420 mm ones. these plans are done to enhance ships whatever way you can, as much as the budget you think you can acquire from the government.

Those ships were built to be easily carrier convertable though. Japan built a shadow carrier fleet interwar as it was unsatisfied with the restrictions of the naval treaties. They both built convertable auxiliary ships for their navy and subzidised building of convertable civilian ships (all were passenger liners I think). Afaik, only conventional aircraft carrier in Japanese Navy that was not meant to function as a carrier from the start was Shinano.

Regarding upgrades, it was pretty standard peace time process to do more or less minor upgrades to just about every aspect of the ship. Engine, for example does suffer from wear (iirc, Hood was as much as 3-5 knots off from her original when WW2 began). If you need to replace boiler tubing and the boilers, you might just as well upgrade them. With the saved weight from newer machinery you can then add some armor plating, AA, and add bulges to keep it all seaworthy and stable (well, I guess the last part is unneccessary unless you actually do start to compromize stability, ie. go overweight ).

Main battery upgrade can be hard though, as you need to do lot of reconstruction, possibly even lenghten the ship. But these are ultimately peace time considerations for either old or otherwise unsatisfactory ships (mostly referring to stability problems on Japanese CAs). The start of the war did push off Hood's and reminder of the Queen Elly's upgrades indefinately.

Though I don't know if they were on subs or just surface ships, they were bigger than your average WW2 torpedo, and a lot faster and better range, and great reliability of detonation.

I'm pretty sure that the Type 93 was deployed only on Cruisers and Destroyers. It came with a price tag worthy of it's capabilities afterall.

 

[unity100]

It seems that the only nation that no reliability problems was Japan (ironically since nothing else they built was reliable), they were really the only nation to do serious testing and development in the interwar years, the Long Lance Torpedoes was something to be feared. Though I don't know if they were on subs or just surface ships, they were bigger than your average WW2 torpedo, and a lot faster and better range, and great reliability of detonation.

what i know is japanese destroyers mounted a huge attack with those torpedoes at one point in pacific. and were effective in scaring off the us task force out of doing something. but i dont remember what.

 

[unity100]

OK, I'll give you these, but even then both were Merchant Ships (i.e., either TP or Convoy), which can't be individually built in HOI3, so you wouldn't have a ship to convert them from...

Those ships were built to be easily carrier convertable though. Japan built a shadow carrier fleet interwar as it was unsatisfied with the restrictions of the naval treaties. They both built convertable auxiliary ships for their navy and subzidised building of convertable civilian ships (all were passenger liners I think). Afaik, only conventional aircraft carrier in Japanese Navy that was not meant to function as a carrier from the start was Shinano.

Regarding upgrades, it was pretty standard peace time process to do more or less minor upgrades to just about every aspect of the ship. Engine, for example does suffer from wear (iirc, Hood was as much as 3-5 knots off from her original when WW2 began). If you need to replace boiler tubing and the boilers, you might just as well upgrade them. With the saved weight from newer machinery you can then add some armor plating, AA, and add bulges to keep it all seaworthy and stable. Main battery upgrade can be hard though, as you need to do lot of reconstruction, possibly even lenghten the ship. But these are ultimately peace time considerations. The start of the war did push off Hood's and reminder of the Queen Elly's upgrades indefinately.

notice that the idea here is the fact that the biggest drive for innovation is need.

and, the nations in and before ww2 had possessed the ability to conduct such upgrades, and neither carriers nor battleships were impossible to upgrade as some people suggested in earlier threads and discussions.

even the hull. fitting bships with anti torpedo bulges were a common practice. and noone can say that it was impossible to implant extra armor to battleships either. you would increase the tonnage, and reduce the speed or do some other concessions or would have to make upgrades to other aspects to keep them also current, but, technically, they were possible to do.

my point is these were not done, because battleships became obsolete starting from mid 30s.

 

[unmerged(172501)]

A lot of these things could be solved by having optional settings panel when setting up game added.

Do you want Historical or ahistorical game (slider to adjust how much)
Do you want to allow upgrades to navil vessels? Y or N
Do you want to exercise greater control over Ai allies (several levels of control)
Etc etc.

Now we just need a genius to make a mod that does this.