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dsteve3

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Why do you need an HQ? You can give fleets perpetual orders. You can have fleets on reserve in ports, so if some of your ships get damaged during a (perpetual) mission, they will automatically be replaced. You can assign as many or as few sea areas as you wish.

You can assign ships and fleets to an HQ as part of its mandate to perform whatever task. Or you can just have the fleets perform a task indefinitely.

We've been told the parameters of how this will work; its pretty much wide-open.

Of course, if you don't want to assign control to the AI, you don't have to. Or if you want the AI to control some parts but not others. Or if you want the AI to control something for a limited time, you can. Or you can hand the whole thing over to an AI HQ of whatever command level, and give it whatever level of responsibility you want. But you don't have to give it everything. Or you can give it everything; planes, ships, troops.

We've been told this already. Its in the developer's diaries.
 

blood_lazio

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Since I'm too lazy to read through all the posts, I don't know if this has been said, but anyways.

I think that the HQ unit is a land unit, right? So, you just build that HQ and assign it a shitload of planes and subs... you got your theatre...

Cheers,
Nick

PS: Otherwise, just make a very small theatre... just one inf division and u got your theatre again.

You don't build HQ's anymore, they are not divisions as before... And you don't make theaters, the AI does for you (no manual override possible).

The debate i would think is if German Western Front should include the Atlantic, or should the Atlantic be a theater for itself. This will be scriptet into the game, so it's not something you can just do or not...
 

JoeGiavani

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LOL! A waste of resources??? So what the germans should have built a huge surface fleet instead??

U-boats are the best ships for convoy raiding, the USA used them against the japanese also... There is an argument out there about the US subs being the ones who won the pacific war for the allies..

Are you being serious at all? A surface fleet takes way too lon to build after war is declared, so u-boats are 100 % the perfect solution for germany, who needs to try and control the atlantic, so by blokading Britain, they in the end will make them surrender...

So if you where the Grand Admiral of the Kriegsmarine in 1940 what would you be building?
Nothing at all.
Think about it. A sub is like 5 IC for 90 days. Will it do anywhere near that damage to British industry? I doubt it.
 

truth is life

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Joe Giovanni said:
Think about it. A sub is like 5 IC for 90 days. Will it do anywhere near that damage to British industry? I doubt it.
I think it will, particularly as there are several new mechanics that have been introduced especially to make convoy raiding more useful. The National Unity damage alone may make subs worthwhile for Germany, while the strangulation of British industry (due to many of their supplies being produced overseas) may be quite beneficial to Germany. Provided NAVs, TACs, and INTs (or FTRs) are provided to escort the U-boats and keep the skies clear, I can imagine such a strategy being highly successful.
 

KingMississippi

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I think submarines will be much more useful in HOI3 than previous variants. With National Unity and the changing of logistics and resource transportation we will have a much better transfer of resources and supplies. You can cut off the British colonies from supplies, etc from reaching them in India, Egypt, etc while at the same time actually destroying resources because when the convoy sinks now the resources go with them. The change in oil to two resources also means that combined with a Battle of Britain style offensive you could neutralize British forces by depriving the navy and air force of oil. Also the effect on National Unity as merchants are sunk would take a toll. We are not talking about Winston Churchill truly running Britain but instead talking about an AI with specific scripting and game mechanics. Destroy enough convoys after tearing apart the BEF and combined with the Blitz and you could destroy Britain without Seelowe.
 

blood_lazio

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Nothing at all.
Think about it. A sub is like 5 IC for 90 days. Will it do anywhere near that damage to British industry? I doubt it.

I believe king made a big AAR about him playing Italy against Yugoslavia... He won the war, but lost National Unity because the Yugoslavian sub killed his supplies... That's Yugoslavia v Italy... Think about what Germany v England is going to be like...

And if you sink a convoy, the ressources onboard disappere, so you can now ingame as well completely stave Britain...

Looking so much forward to deploying Dönitz with a MASSIVE Wolfpack and sinking the whole home fleet and forcing Britain to surrender..
 

Federkiel

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I believe king made a big AAR about him playing Italy against Yugoslavia... He won the war, but lost National Unity because the Yugoslavian sub killed his supplies... That's Yugoslavia v Italy... Think about what Germany v England is going to be like...

And if you sink a convoy, the ressources onboard disappere, so you can now ingame as well completely stave Britain...

Looking so much forward to deploying Dönitz with a MASSIVE Wolfpack and sinking the whole home fleet and forcing Britain to surrender..

Umm, a few questionmarks come up in my mind. I have never heard that strategic warfare had impact on the will of a nation to fight in ww2. Using subs and bombers one may significantly affect the ability to wage war in economic and military aspect but public resistance was pointed against the enemy and did stiffen in every case. The A-bomb may be an exception but overall bombers and subs didn't create uprisings or loss of public support on the war effort of the affected nations, IIRC.


If starting the game in 1936, all nations should have enough resource piles to get over the actual loss of transported goods when the war finally starts. In HoI 2 DD an UK without CONVs did prevail for another two years until they finally had no resources left.

Maybe this will be fixed - for all nations - in HoI 3. I would be very glad to see that!
 

Alex_brunius

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Umm, a few questionmarks come up in my mind. I have never heard that strategic warfare had impact on the will of a nation to fight in ww2. Using subs and bombers one may significantly affect the ability to wage war in economic and military aspect but public resistance was pointed against the enemy and did stiffen in every case. The A-bomb may be an exception but overall bombers and subs didn't create uprisings or loss of public support on the war effort of the affected nations, IIRC.
Thats why they give a hit on National Unity and not Dissent. Uprisings, public support and the will of the people is modelled by dissent. National Unity is how unified the leaders and powerful men is behind you and if they belive the war can be won. Industries in ruin and no supply lines do a good job of convincing them the war is lost.

Bombing runs might strenghten the will and fighting spirit of the people, but not of the leaders who see the full picture.
 
Last edited:

blood_lazio

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Umm, a few questionmarks come up in my mind. I have never heard that strategic warfare had impact on the will of a nation to fight in ww2. Using subs and bombers one may significantly affect the ability to wage war in economic and military aspect but public resistance was pointed against the enemy and did stiffen in every case. The A-bomb may be an exception but overall bombers and subs didn't create uprisings or loss of public support on the war effort of the affected nations, IIRC.


If starting the game in 1936, all nations should have enough resource piles to get over the actual loss of transported goods when the war finally starts. In HoI 2 DD an UK without CONVs did prevail for another two years until they finally had no resources left.

Maybe this will be fixed - for all nations - in HoI 3. I would be very glad to see that!

I know, but when it becomes a real airborne and seaborne siege it starts to hurt... Germany could handle being isolated, because they planned for it, Britain couldn't... But no faith is lost as long as they have food... But when people stave national unity is gone... And you have Russia 1917..
 

Federkiel

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Thats why they give a hit on National Unity and not Dissent. Uprising and the will of the people is modelled by dissent. National Unity is how unified the leaders and powerful men is behind you and if they belive the war can be won. Industries in ruin and no supply lines do a good job of convincing them the war is lost.

Bombing runs might strenghten the will and fighting spirit of the people, but not of the leaders who see the full picture.

Ok, i got your point. But what will unity actually do then? What is it good for? Coups? Avoiding or executing espionage?
 

Alex_brunius

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Ok, i got your point. But what will unity actually do then? What is it good for? Coups? Avoiding or executing espionage?
It determines when a nation sues for peace, as in how many of their important cities or victory points you must take first. France and Japan giving up without losing all or the majority of their home territory would be examples of low national unity. Soviet and Germany fighting on to the bitter end might be examples of higher national unity.
 

Federkiel

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It determines when a nation sues for peace, as in how many of their important cities or victory points you must take first. France and Japan giving up without losing all or the majority of their home territory would be examples of low national unity. Soviet and Germany fighting on to the bitter end might be examples of higher national unity.

Sounds reasonable. Thanks for this insight into the concept i must have overread in the DDs! :)
 

unmerged(87984)

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In HoI2, by building enough subs, you can force the UK to have nothing but convoys & convoy escorts in production by the end of 1940. And still starve their colonies. I hope the impact on the home islands will be seen in HoI3.
 

Federkiel

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Yes, no one doubts that. Still they continue to max their IC at home unless you something terrible to the populace there. They can do this for years, with Himalaya-like mountains of saved resource piles. I hope this will become a story of the past with the release of HoI 3.
 

Wenla

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1. Never played HoI...
2. This topic seems to be as good place to ask this question as any other topic...
3. And finally a question: what is theatre with this context/game?

Wenla
 

Alexander Seil

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4 levels? Are you saying that you can put ships and planes along with infantry in a hierarchic level? That would merely be a small theatre without the notion of geographic unity.

Theater
Army Group
Army
Corps

Ships and aircraft can be assigned to any of them.

More to the point, however, naval unit orders are detailed enough to make automation of this sort pointless. All air and naval units are already under AI control, through the mission interface.

EDIT: And no, an Army isn't a Theater.
 

unmerged(15010)

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Theater
Army Group
Army
Corps

Ships and aircraft can be assigned to any of them.

More to the point, however, naval unit orders are detailed enough to make automation of this sort pointless. All air and naval units are already under AI control, through the mission interface.

EDIT: And no, an Army isn't a Theater.


Thanks for the answer.
 

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Nothing at all.
Think about it. A sub is like 5 IC for 90 days. Will it do anywhere near that damage to British industry? I doubt it.

are you serious?

yes it will do more damage than the expenses if they are used correctly in hoi2, ive often had 2-3 times the ROI for my subs when they are used with air cover and in nicely sized wolfpacks.
1 submarine alone isn't going to break a convoy especially if it is escorted but a wolfpack of 12+ subs are going to wreck havoc on the average convoy

the historical ROI was at around 10 times their expenditure for germany during the war and that is just a conservative estimate, it was around 40 times for the US subs in the pacific due to the japs lack of anti submarine equipment and training.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/wwii-campaigns.html

you might also want to read "the U-boat War" by david westwood
isbn 1-932033-43-2
it deals only the the atlantic war, for the pacific side you have to look elsewhere.

1 submarine model 3 (long range sub 38) is 3 IC for 160 days minus production gearing and modifiers (3*160=480)

10 convoy ships are 4 IC for 75 days (4*75=300)
10 escorts are 4 ic for 80 days (4*80=320)

1 model 3 DD is 3 IC for 140 days (3*140=420)

my own experience:
the british use around 1000 convoy ships to fully supply all theaters outside UK and recive all resources from their colonies, their convoy system tend to start breaking down when they reach 500 convoy ships depending on how many troops they supply around the world.

since a submarine cost around 480 ic/days they cost the same as 16 convoys ships so by the most basic calculation a submarine must sink more than 16 convoy ships right? wrong, since without escorts convoy ships are just dead meat to a sub a sustains virtually no losses and would be able to rack up more than 16 kills at leisure.
(480/300 = 1.6*10 = 16 convoy ships)

to prevent a submarine from getting some very happy days in the atlantic you need escorts to escort your convoys and their valuable cargo since they wont bring the goods to their goal if they are on the bottom of the ocean. my experience usually says 1 escort for every 5 convoy ships and you are ensured that any attacker would be bloodied atleast but for arguments sake lets put the escort to convoy ship ratio at 1 to 10.
to make sure that the previous mentioned 16 convoys ships make it safely to port we need atleast 1.6 escorts, if we round this up to 2 escorts this will cost us an additional 64 IC/days to a combined cost of (16 convoys ships - the cost of the escorts = 13.8 convoys ships)
13.8 convoys ships might be a tad more managerble for your average submarine captain but our little calculation does not stop here for since every submarine force that encounters an escorted convoy risks damage and destruction from the escorts this is not very likely to happen with only 2 escorts...

what every submarine captain and commander fears are the destroyer hunting groups that prowled the atlantic, these are the usual bane for any small pack of subs. so in order to hunt and destroy with just a resonable degree of success there need to be several groups patrolling choke points (the greenland-Iceland-Faroes-Scarpa Flow gap and the english Channel) and the convoy sealanes.

if you build just 1 DD for this duty for every 5 enemy subs out there you will probably not win the war in the atlantic (especially against a good and dedicated opponent) but 1/5th of a DD costs 84 IC/days (420/5=84) and if we add the cost to our little convoys to subs calculation we end up with 480-64-84=332 IC/days/300*10= 11.06 Convoy ships per submarine

bear in mind that this is not an accurate or very good way to calculate the cost but it indicates to a degree the cost benefit of submarines

11 ships per submarine, is this possible to achive as a german uboot admiral?
that depends entirely on what resources the allied puts into hunting for those subs, since the atlantic is big it takes a lot of submarine groups to find the convoys but it also takes a lot of escorts and destroyers to prevent the subs from racking up their kills and ive not included air cover aka naval bombers into this calculation as both sides could and should have them.

now when i play germany in HOI 2 and decide on doing subwarfare in the atlantic against UK, the end result is usually a crippled UK by 43 since i use wolfpacks of 12-18 subs which just so happens to be able to kick the living shit out of any convoy they happen uppon and any DD hunting group they cannot defeat they have plenty of time to run away from in most cases... in order to take on a wolfpack of around 12 subs you need atleast 6 DD's (which is on the low end of the scale) the cost of 6 DD's is 420*6= 2520 IC/days which is very little compared to the 12*480=5760 IC/days for the subs... but when you start to do the rest of the math for the subs you probably end up at a really nice cost benefit for every submarine... i do atleast ;)
 

ForzaA

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Off-topic warning.

keep the discussion to whether or not the submarine campaign was effective IRL to the History forums where it belongs.
(I know you're tempted!)
 

unmerged(51416)

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Why do you need an HQ? You can give fleets perpetual orders. You can have fleets on reserve in ports, so if some of your ships get damaged during a (perpetual) mission, they will automatically be replaced. You can assign as many or as few sea areas as you wish.
It only proves, again, that we need higher level HQs for Naval and Air units as well. This way you could subordinate Air Units to Naval 'Bigger Units' (e.g. Fleets). As far as we can tell, theatres will do some evaluation and be more independent, while fleet on perpetual orders will simply carry on until too low on org/str or time expires...
It determines when a nation sues for peace, as in how many of their important cities or victory points you must take first. France and Japan giving up without losing all or the majority of their home territory would be examples of low national unity. Soviet and Germany fighting on to the bitter end might be examples of higher national unity.
Nah, Jap national unity will be quite high, I imagine. It will be shattered severly by Atomic Bombs, Strat bombing campaign (not countered effectively enough), Sub campaign and general battlefield losses.