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unmerged(56429)

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Apr 29, 2006
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While all nations did use them differently or had different doctrines, their result was basically the same anyways so what nations intended to use them for doesn't matter much for our game.

Subs achieved 3 results which only 1-2 work to various degrees in HoI3:

# Sink enemy convoy tonnage (and cargo) weakening their overseas trades and operations.
# Sink or Damage enemy capital ships that happen to pass by with "lucky" shots (warship attrition).
# Work as scouts giving you a good general Idea off enemy ship and convoy movements.

Excellent summary of the main uses for subs.

A. For Germany, their main sub mission was convoy attack, with some scouting. For Japan mainly capital ship attack, and scouting. For the US, a pretty good balance between all 3 missions. Players, and the AI, should be able to give mission priorities to sub fleets, so they can order the priority of these 3 missions for each sub fleet.

B. From what I heard in other threads, the convoy raiding part of this is reasonably modeled, except for 2 problems:
1. Subs are not surrently cost effective enough at sinking convoys. If you have subs attacking enemy convoys, they should be extremely cost effective, with the cost of the convoys they sink being much more than their own cost. This could probably be fixed by giving subs a larger sinking probability in convoy attack.
2. To preserve balance though, escorts should be more effective at sinking subs, provided you have enough of them per convoy, and the escorts are not technologically behind the subs. Sub effectiveness should also be reduced if their operating area is being patrolled by either land aircraft or CAGs.
3. If these changes are made, then a typical result would be that a nation would build subs, and start sinking a huge amount of convoys, then the convoy nation, will have to build more and better escorts, and provide air patrols over the sub operating areas, thus paring back the sub threat, until the subs are no longer cost effective, at least until sub research provides better subs. Pretty much what happened historically in the atlantic.

C. On scouting, I agree that subs should have a very good search value in finding enemy ships and task forces, and with a low chance of being harmed, provided their primary mission is selected as scouting. You could fix this, by allowing a scout mission for subs. They would have good search value, but lower convoy and ship attack, and a very low chance at being detected. On mission selection, if the mission is scouting, then they will only scout. If the mission is convoy attack, they will scout, until they find a convoy, then attack it. If fleet attack, they will scout, until they find a fleet, then attack. If balanced, they will scout until they find a fleet or a convoy, and then attack it.

D. On capital ship attack, the problem is you can't have subs fight like normal surface ships, like happens now, because they will either be far too effective, devestating whole fleets in mega stacks, or not effective at all and just getting sunk. You need a system where subs are very good at hit and run capital ship attrition, but ineffective in a running battle. You could do this by special sub rules doing the following:
1. When a surface fleet encounters a group of subs, they dont fight as a group. Instead would attack individually, at widely spaced intervals, simulating each sub laying in wait, while the fleet comes to it. Once the attack is resolved for a sub, it then breaks off combat, and will not get another chance for a specified period, while they slowly try to reach an attack position again. While there would be a small chance to detect and sink a sub between attacks, it should be relatively small. Subs were mainly only vulnerable when they were trying to attack something.
2. In resolving the attack, one sub at a time, you would first determine whether the sub manages to get an attack on a capital ship or troop transport without being detected. This would depend on the effectiveness of the sub, vs the effectiveness of the escorts, and the ratio of escorts to capital ships. The capital ship would also have some chance at detecting the sub, but much less than an escort.
3. If the sub manages to approach undetected, then it gets an attack against a capital ship or troop transport or possibly also an escort, with a good chance at damage, and a chance to sink, depending on the strength of the sub vs the size/armor of the target. After this attack, you again determine whether the sub is found by the escorts, with the chance being much higher now. If not detected, the sub gets to attack another target.
4. Once the sub is detected, either before they get to attack, or after an attack, they will then immediately break off. The escorts will pursue, with a chance to sink the sub, determined by the effectiveness of the sub, vs the numbers and effectiveness of the escorts. Once this escort pursuit ends, the sub will have to wait a specified period, before it can try to approach and attack again.
5. The probabilities of the escorts detecting and sinking the sub will have to be carefully balanced, so they have a decent chance to evade detection and sink targets, but if those targets have enough escorts, the subs have a fair chance to be detected before they can attack, and a good chance to be detected and sunk after they attack. Fleets with a decent ratio of escorts to targets, should be much less vulnerable to sub attack than a fleet with insufficient escorts. And very good subs should have a better chance to attack without detection, and evade and retreat after attack. Also, any fleet with air cover should be less vulnerable to sub attack, because the planes have a chance to detect the subs before they approach.
 

unmerged(187441)

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No, no, that's not it for convoys.

The problem is not just that it's not cost effective to destroy convoys: The problem is that, in most cases, destroying convoys is useless.

A resource convoy can carry any amount of resources it it. Infinite transport capacity. So one can't really starve the UK, for example: If a single ship gets through from, say, India: the entire Indian resource production for the last X months gets sent over to the mainland. So no number of subs can really stop the UK from operating their factories at full capacity. And, apparently, this is WAD.

As the UK, all one has to do is avoid losing every single convoy ship: As long as it doesn't all go down the drain, and remains there for many months, the UK has nothing to fear. This is even worse in the 36 scenario, where the UK has at least three years of resource stockpiling before the war.

So really, subs are useless by design.
 

Slan

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Sub warfare is not useless, only badly balanced. In the modded game I'm currently playing, the United Kingdom has already run out of rares, and their colonies are out of supply, because they have absolutely no convoys left... My intervention as the USA seems to have helped a bit, but we are still far from the optimum... (By the way, the convoy raiding effectiveness of subs is not increased, nor was their cost lowered, only their visibility is lowered, and the resources of majors have been redistributed.)
 

unmerged(56429)

Second Lieutenant
Apr 29, 2006
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No, no, that's not it for convoys.

The problem is not just that it's not cost effective to destroy convoys: The problem is that, in most cases, destroying convoys is useless.

A resource convoy can carry any amount of resources it it. Infinite transport capacity. So one can't really starve the UK, for example: If a single ship gets through from, say, India: the entire Indian resource production for the last X months gets sent over to the mainland. So no number of subs can really stop the UK from operating their factories at full capacity. And, apparently, this is WAD.

As the UK, all one has to do is avoid losing every single convoy ship: As long as it doesn't all go down the drain, and remains there for many months, the UK has nothing to fear. This is even worse in the 36 scenario, where the UK has at least three years of resource stockpiling before the war.

So really, subs are useless by design.

Good point. So in addition to my other suggestions, there should also be a limit on how many resources each convoy ship can carry, so you can begin to starve a nation by getting a high proportion of their convoys, rather than having to get all of them.

Sounds like tighter resources on stored resources would also help. And perhaps add an ability for a nation to use IC to build additional storage for a specific resource, so they could stockpile a critical resource, but would have to rely on regular supplies for others.
 

unmerged(106255)

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I think the sub's convoy attack works well enough. Some things I would change though:

- Convoys run once a week instead of every day, and carry seven times as much. Losing a convoy should really hurt!

- Subs should not be able to fight against destroyers. They should be slaughtered by them.

- If the sub is considered to be the attacker against a capital ship, it should get a sea_attack bonus of 100 or some other ungodly number for one hour of attack so there is a chance that it will damage or sink it's target. Then it can either escape or be slaughtered by any attendant destroyers.
 

Daelyn75

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Well if nothing comes from tomorrows SF development diary then I doubt there is going to be changes to the submarine warfare. Sad really, because other than NU, it hasn't changed a bit since HoI1.

I thought Johan said that whatever convoys you sink, the resources carried by them are gone. Or is this not true?
 

Danevang

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I thought Johan said that whatever convoys you sink, the resources carried by them are gone. Or is this not true?

I also remember him saying that...but that would imply that a single convoy ship carries a limited amount of cargo, and it doesn't. Even worse, it appears that Paradox is satisfied with the current system. They never repplied to this thread about it, and when I got an answer through Veldmaarschalk, it was that the system was working as designed.

I'm quite confused about this convoy system, and no one from Paradox has bothered to comment on it's functionallity yet, even though they've been asked to do that several times. Too bad. :(
 

silenced

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I personally prefer NAV to sink convoys, you barely lose any. You may not have that big range, but covering the Biskaya does the trick. =)
 

unmerged(162341)

de Vauban
Sep 4, 2009
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I have feeling that Paradox developers have serious problem with understanding strategical importance of the subs.
I mean I dont think subs are critical element of the game,still it will be interesting and good for overall feeling of completness of this grand strategy,to be able to starve enemy with subs in right circumstances,which was in ww2 era realy realistic possibility.
I am known to be great fan of Arsenal of Democracy,but even this brilliant polished game is anable to deliver proper representation of submarines since game mechanism is highly anfriendly to the subs.In HOI III(I dont know about Semper-Fi) nothig has changed.Actualy,since other aspects of the game evolved in HOI III compared to HOI II while subs stayed the same, poor status of representation of the subs in HOI III looks even more prominent to me.
It seems that for developers that made both HOI II and HOI III, subs are absolutely on the bottom of interest.
Why is that so?

Subs are definitely "ugly duckling" of this game franchise.
 
Last edited:

Alex_brunius

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I agree with most off what's been said. And I have a few suggestions to what I believe needs changing to much more accurately model the battle of the Atlantic for example:

Convoy war:
# Convoys & Escorts need to be linked to practicals so that there is a window off opportunity before the enemy gets these Industries "geared up" (happy times).
# Airplanes should have individual sub attack/detection stats.
# Like others have said convoy ships carry finite amount of goods. For example 1ship can carry 10 goods 300km per day.
# Better interface and longer shipping times. In the Interface you could have each convoy in a specific location, for example Convoy X, 10/15 ships remaining ETA 29:th june.

Longer shipping times should only be considered if the supply system can cope well with periodic injections, otherwise Id go for that each sunk convoy cannot be replaced in a week even if you have them available (for balance reasons). That means even if your convoy delivers daily, the amount will be reduced below 100% off desired for the next week after the loss.

Capital ship war:
# Subs should have a positioning bonus against Carriers, and be the only ship being able to fire on them despite being considerably slower.
# Subs could have a large stacking penalty so they cannot be used in fleets with other ships nor in large sub fleets, this would allow them to be given a more historically higher sea attack values without screwing up balance.
 

unmerged(162341)

de Vauban
Sep 4, 2009
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I agree with most off what's been said. And I have a few suggestions to what I believe needs changing to much more accurately model the battle of the Atlantic for example:

Convoy war:
# Convoys & Escorts need to be linked to practicals so that there is a window off opportunity before the enemy gets these Industries "geared up" (happy times).
# Airplanes should have individual sub attack/detection stats.
# Like others have said convoy ships carry finite amount of goods. For example 1ship can carry 10 goods 300km per day.
# Better interface and longer shipping times. In the Interface you could have each convoy in a specific location, for example Convoy X, 10/15 ships remaining ETA 29:th june.

Longer shipping times should only be considered if the supply system can cope well with periodic injections, otherwise Id go for that each sunk convoy cannot be replaced in a week even if you have them available (for balance reasons). That means even if your convoy delivers daily, the amount will be reduced below 100% off desired for the next week after the loss.

Capital ship war:
# Subs should have a positioning bonus against Carriers, and be the only ship being able to fire on them despite being considerably slower.
# Subs could have a large stacking penalty so they cannot be used in fleets with other ships nor in large sub fleets, this would allow them to be given a more historically higher sea attack values without screwing up balance.

Those are great ideas,I will be happy if developer will considder them.

From what I read,submarines were the most dangerous enemy of aircraft carrier,and stayed this to this date,except of course planes from another carrier .Subs in ww2 sunked 8 or 9 carriers ,while gunfire from battleships sunked(desputable)only 1 or 2 carrier in history.
Allso dosen of battleships lies on the bottom of oceans becouse of the sub torpedo.
Constantly we are withnesing some kind of"mantra" on this forum,that subs were only for sinking convoys.
I would like to see HOI III in which sub will be able to score more capital sinkings,especialy becouse they can not starve enemy economy like in RL- some form of balance.
 

Daelyn75

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Well it's thursday and nothing in the Development Diary. Too bad, I guess subs will stay the same afterall . . . .

Blahh!

Does anyone know if a mod has ever done anything with them to bring out more realism? For my personal HoI2 mod, I gave subs twice the defensiveness, so at least they weren't sunk in droves and had a chance to come out of combat with an enemy fleet alive.
 

Alex_brunius

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Does anyone know if a mod has ever done anything with them to bring out more realism? For my personal HoI2 mod, I gave subs twice the defensiveness, so at least they weren't sunk in droves and had a chance to come out of combat with an enemy fleet alive.
You gave a land unit stat to a naval unit? And it worked!?

I think we need to experiment a bit more with these stats ^^
 

Daelyn75

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You gave a land unit stat to a naval unit? And it worked!?

I think we need to experiment a bit more with these stats ^^

No lol, it was naval defense, or sea defense.
 

Darkrenown

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I also remember him saying that...but that would imply that a single convoy ship carries a limited amount of cargo, and it doesn't.

Not looked at it recently, but IIRC you have to convoy in eacy day's production from each overseas area. If you sink the convoy carrying it then that day's production is gone. So while a convoy can carry an unlimited amount, if that convoy is sunk then whatever it was holding is lost.
 

mbabbs

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From the new manual

"There is also a new combat penalty to capital ships that do not have a proper screen of destroyers and light cruisers. Lastly, submarines and naval bombers can get a surprise damage bonus when they spot enemy ships and choose to engage."
 

Alex_brunius

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From the new manual

"There is also a new combat penalty to capital ships that do not have a proper screen of destroyers and light cruisers. Lastly, submarines and naval bombers can get a surprise damage bonus when they spot enemy ships and choose to engage."
If it's exported into the text files for us to mod, this could be very interesting.