Sub Warfare in Semper Fi

[Kayapo]

I've been eagerly waiting for the expansion and going through Dev Diaries to see what will get improved.

Obviously many of things I found lacking on the game are being adressed, the OOB editor not the least of them.

Now what I've been looking for are changes on the Naval System. I've always found the naval aspect of HOI to be rather lacking, but I was really hoping some things would be changed regarding submarine warfare.

Now I haven't been able to find any information and what/if will be changed regarding sub warfare in SF. The naval warfare dev diary isn't really sheding any light into this.

What am I missing? Is there a thread somewhere about this? Are we not going to see anything changed regarding this core aspect of WWII?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Are we not going to see anything changed regarding this core aspect of WWII?

Probably not, none of the announced features are relevant to subs.

Me and many others have posted lots off Ideas on how to fix subs several times since HoI2 and they are basically still using an identical system for subs, except for the national unity modifier that is.

At least be happy your not playing the Victoria where the subs in WW1 are even worse to model what they were good at

 

[Kayapo]

That is really too bad. I was hoping they would just abstract the whole thing and be done with it. That would be the best compromise in my opinion.

Well at least they know what to think about for a second expansion.

 

[tazaaron]

Im sure subs are getting tweak, i cant say for a fact but ill bet on it, now how much they get played with is another Q.

 

[Kayapo]

Im sure subs are getting tweak, i cant say for a fact but ill bet on it, now how much they get played with is another Q.

I haven't found any evidence of that at all. To be honest I think Naval Combat as a whole is not really the focus of this expansion pack.

I guess we might have to wait for the next one.

 

[Slan]

Let's wait until release before jumping to conclusions, shall we?

 

[cougar46]

Seems like the naval system got overhauled a bit and I'm sure they did something to subs. The problem with subs though is unlike every other ship they had no real generic role across the world, every nation used them differently. The problem with going the abstract route is that in reality up until early '43 Germany was the only nation using them in a role that could be considered an abstract role in HoI3. Pretty much every nation used them in direct conjunction with the fleet. Certain areas I would like to see them take the easy route, but this is one area I'd really like to see them sit back and work it out. The fun with subs is the fact they are able to fill several different roles and can be taken in various directions depending on what role you want them to fill, hopefully Paradox is able to find a way to make them useful in the various roles instead of just convoy raiding.

 

[No idea]

I recall reading that with Semper Fidelis subs should be able to sink more easily lone CVs, for example. But don´t take my words, perhaps I just dreamt them, or they were said about a mod, although I would swear I read them in these forums.

 

[Danevang]

Check out this thread:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473173

The reply to that was that the convoy system is working as designed, so it probably won't be changed in Semper Fi. Strategic sub warfare is not working, and probably won't in the near future.

 

[No idea]

Check out this thread:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473173

The reply to that was that the convoy system is working as designed, so it probably won't be changed in Semper Fi. Strategic sub warfare is not working, and probably won't in the near future.

I am sure (yes, this time I am sure) I read that we´ll be able to use sea supply routes and create the supply convoys we want in Semper Fidelis. I recall reading they were going to change this only aspect due to the stupid situation created when, playing as Italy, you conquer many of Africa and the Mediterranean basin, including Turkey, and your supplies take one of the longest routes on earth instead of going port to port.

 

[cougar46]

Check out this thread:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473173

The reply to that was that the convoy system is working as designed, so it probably won't be changed in Semper Fi. Strategic sub warfare is not working, and probably won't in the near future.

How were the supplies for British troops in North Africa and Europe (If any are there yet)? While that indeed does suck, if you have success in starving the troops off the isle I'd say convoy raiding still has a crucial use.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The problem with subs though is unlike every other ship they had no real generic role across the world, every nation used them differently.

While all nations did use them differently or had different doctrines, their result was basically the same anyways so what nations intended to use them for doesn't matter much for our game.

Subs achieved 3 results which only 1-2 work to various degrees in HoI3:

# Sink enemy convoy tonnage (and cargo) weakening their overseas trades and operations.
# Sink or Damage enemy capital ships that happen to pass by with "lucky" shots (warship attrition).
# Work as scouts giving you a good general Idea off enemy ship and convoy movements.

 

[Kayapo]

Let's wait until release before jumping to conclusions, shall we?

There is no need to be condescending. It is far from my intent to bash the expansion.

My goal with this thread was to find out if I had missed information about sub warfare in SF. Since it doesn't seem that we'll see changes (based on lack of released information) there is no reason why we can't discuss possibilities for future developments in this area (future expansions).

HOI3: Wolfpacks or maybe HOI3: Battle of the Atlantic. The second expansion for the critically aclaimed war game by Paradox.

Now wouldn't that be nice to see?

While all nations did use them differently or had different doctrines, their result was basically the same anyways so what nations intended to use them for doesn't matter much for our game.

Subs achieved 3 results which only 1-2 work to various degrees in HoI3:

# Sink enemy convoy tonnage (and cargo) weakening their overseas trades and operations.
# Sink or Damage enemy capital ships that happen to pass by with "lucky" shots (warship attrition).
# Work as scouts giving you a good general Idea off enemy ship and convoy movements.

All of these roles are quite suitable for an abstracted system. It would be simpler and possibly more fun, maybe even more realistic, who knows.

 

[cougar46]

While all nations did use them differently or had different doctrines, their result was basically the same anyways so what nations intended to use them for doesn't matter much for our game.

Subs achieved 3 results which only 1-2 work to various degrees in HoI3:

# Sink enemy convoy tonnage (and cargo) weakening their overseas trades and operations.
# Sink or Damage enemy capital ships that happen to pass by with "lucky" shots (warship attrition).
# Work as scouts giving you a good general Idea off enemy ship and convoy movements.

Not really, for example Japan because of the massive size of almost all their subs frequently used them to transport supplies from Japan to troops on the various pacific islands and China, or as direct parts of their fleets in combat, and a few even operated as mini aircraft carriers and extremely long range scouts with a range of almost 40,000 km. For the first half of war they also focused solely on military targets and task forces, sinking a couple of fleet carriers and assorted number of medium ships and crippled another carrier and a couple of battleships in 1942 alone.

Obviously something like the mini aircraft carrier would be impossible to represent in game, but some of the other stuff such as doubling as supply ships or vastly improving efficiency is fleets is doable and would add some more depth to this aspect.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Not really, for example Japan because of the massive size of almost all their subs frequently used them to transport supplies from Japan to troops on the various pacific islands and China

And they were useless on that due to their very very small cargo compared to the high cost. Thus I did not include it as a feasible result and its most certainly far below the scale of a game such as HoI3.

... or as direct parts of their fleets in combat, and a few even operated as mini aircraft carriers and extremely long range scouts with a range of almost 40,000 km.

They were never sailing as part of a fleet to my knowledge, they were often sent before to locate the enemy however and scouting I already mentioned as a result that all sides subs achieved.

 

[cougar46]

And they were useless on that due to their very very small cargo compared to the high cost. Thus I did not include it as a feasible result and its most certainly far below the scale of a game such as HoI3.

The Type D1 and D2 were able to carry an estimated 82 tons of cargo, 110 troops, and two landing craft which is about half of what a modern 747 jet can carry. They were usually sent in packs of 4 or 5 and that's a considerable amount of supplies when added up. I believe they produced 15 D1's and D2's with production starting after the battle of Midway and were fairly effective until the U.S. just got way to good and finding and sinking subs.

Certainly no substitute for convoys, but you can use transport planes in game to drop supplies and in comparison a C-47b which was the U.S. most common transport plane during WWII had a max payload of 4 tons. I don't see much wrong with giving an option to research and produce submarines with a "special" cargo holds to help with the shipment of supplies at the expense of firepower, speed, and armor. With the current ability to customize your ships I think it would actually work quite well.

They were never sailing as part of a fleet to my knowledge, they were often sent before to locate the enemy however and scouting I already mentioned as a result that all sides subs achieved.

They were used alongside fleets in the southwest Pacific early in the war, they did scout and recon but also fought alongside the fleets in direct combat due to the fact Japan really didn't have any set role or doctrine for their submarines so they just kept them alongside the main fleet and had some decent success. They used them late in the war along side their fleets as well when they were starved for firepower.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Certainly no substitute for convoys, but you can use transport planes in game to drop supplies and in comparison a C-47b which was the U.S. most common transport plane during WWII had a max payload of 4 tons. I don't see much wrong with giving an option to research and produce submarines with a "special" cargo holds to help with the shipment of supplies at the expense of firepower, speed, and armor. With the current ability to customize your ships I think it would actually work quite well.

The problem is that a Transport Airwing represents roughly 300-500 airplanes (enough to drop 9000 troops, or 11250 troops with airborne warfare equipment). 400 airplanes times 4 tons equals 1600 tons of cargo. Now in the same time to make a single drop with subs (lets say a month) the planes can probably fly 30 trips that distance and you would need 600 D1 subs to deliver equal amounts that the single transport airwing can do.

The amounts they can deliver wouldn't even show up on a HoI3 scale.

 

[Ruthlesssamuria]

Suplly issue in Allied and Axis Allied territory

During World War 2 the USA was not dependent on allies giving them ammo, fuel , food etc Why in game if they land on allied territory and ally has no supplies to support them why must they draw from ally regardless? Why cannot any country draw from there own source of supply and not from an ally when in allied country? This would be more realistic. My best friend complains he cannot get supplies as USA in Europe and he controls several ports but most of his Army is in Vichy France which went Allied not Axis.
Also make Coastal Forts as double as Sub pins. Please fix this in Semper Fi!:wacko::rofl:

 

[Ruthlesssamuria]

Semper fF Needs simple button to you use all CAG

Be nice to have dimple a button to select all CAG and what you want to use of CAG for each type of operation. Port strike, naval strike. But not all or nothing but show all and select from among them what type of operation you want. Also, each nation have theri actual aircraft and prototypes not this vanilla stuff with common weapons. Also when naval battles start let you know so u can go there and decide to flee or fight. I hate gettingreports after the fact and the see I lost x number of ships:wacko: :rofl:

 

[cougar46]

The problem is that a Transport Airwing represents roughly 300-500 airplanes (enough to drop 9000 troops, or 11250 troops with airborne warfare equipment). 400 airplanes times 4 tons equals 1600 tons of cargo. Now in the same time to make a single drop with subs (lets say a month) the planes can probably fly 30 trips that distance and you would need 600 D1 subs to deliver equal amounts that the single transport airwing can do.

The amounts they can deliver wouldn't even show up on a HoI3 scale.

I thought all air wings represented 100 planes in this game, except CAG's?

Anyways I see your point there, certainly don't see a reason why it can't be added in though as I'd think it's enough to show up on HoI3's scale, no large like a transport plane but it shouldn't, it should be a last ditch effort to try and salvage the war just as it was in real life, they couldn't get supplies to their troops through the air or over the surface of the water, so they went underwater and given the circumstances it worked fairly well. If you're playing one of the pacific factions and your convoys are getting ravaged it would be a last ditch option just as it was in real life. Maybe I'll try to mod it into my game and see if it's possible and if there's an actual impact, only way to know for sure.

Really though I'd just hate to see the submarine which really was used viably in so many different roles during the war be confined to an abstracted role that really only one nation fully employed up until 1943.