Sub-Saharan techgroup is now only +60%!

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

mudcrabmerchant

Deputy of the People
65 Badges
Nov 12, 2010
3.348
3.558
  • Rome Gold
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Pride of Nations
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
Not taking either side in this debate, I'd simply like those more knowledgeable to comment on the matter:

Leaving aside the term cultural inferiority, which can carry nasty implications and imply a judgment of intrinsic value, could one say that the problems faced more by Africa than by other colonized regions were influenced by a greater difference in pre- and post-colonial political systems, as compared to other colonized regions?

You had stable, bureaucratic states like Ashanti, yes, but great swathes of sub-Saharan Africa didn't have the same levels of long-term stability and centralization as did European-colonized or influenced regions in Asia. Even in Ethiopia, recovery from a long period of heavy decentralization happened only a relatively short while before European interest in the continent increased greatly.
 

Evie HJ

Cartographer of New Worlds
78 Badges
Jun 14, 2006
4.890
930
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Sengoku
  • Deus Vult
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
I'd venture a guess that African climate and geography probably played a part in keeping several region, especially the interior of the continent, without stable government or whatnot. There were several regions in Africa that were not favorable at all to large-scale Nation-building (jungles, etc) or any kind of sedentary lifestyle at all (the deserts).

These regions would often spawn migrating groups and raiders with an interest ing th emore settled and more hospitable regions were the organized states were. That would in turn result in massive migrations (the Oromo), raids (the Tuaregs) and so forth, destabilizing the existing states, especially the weaker ones). It's not a situation unique to Africa.

In Ethiopia's case, several hundred years surrounded by enemies is rarely conductive to good stuff.
 
Last edited:

eon47

Colonel
107 Badges
Jan 24, 2013
1.064
637
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV
Africa is still far too vast and varied for a blanket statement about pre-colonial conditions. That's the thing, though; in pre-colonial Africa, conditions were much more varied. Afterward, more uniform conditions--namely corruption and dictators propped up by various Western nations--can be found throughout the area. What does that tell you about what the variable might be? Something happened during colonization to make them more similar.

European imperialism in Eastern Asia was much more respectful of existing political entities. China was carved up into areas of influence, and Japan was forcibly opened, but people in those two areas were still acknowledged as being part of their respective homelands. In Africa, and in places like Southeast Asia that have had more problems, local states were usually completely annihilated, and the Europeans substituted in new nations and institutions that were designed purely for the sake of imperialism. That's also why you see tribalism more than nationalism in many of these countries; the nations they have aren't even their own, but rather ones forced upon them by the very people who destroyed what would have been their countries. In short, if you want to pick the most important reason for Africa's present condition, it's that imperialism there was far more brutal even than in Asia. (Although not as much the Americas, what with the mass extermination and pandemics and such. However, you can't mess up the natives if you leave virtually no natives alive.)
 
Last edited:

uishax

Captain
51 Badges
Aug 30, 2013
477
315
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Africa is still far too vast and varied for a blanket statement about pre-colonial conditions. That's the thing, though; in pre-colonial Africa, conditions were much more varied. Afterward, more uniform conditions--namely corruption and dictators propped up by various Western nations--can be found throughout the area. What does that tell you about what the variable might be? Something happened during colonization to make them more similar.

European imperialism in Eastern Asia was much more respectful of existing political entities. China was carved up into areas of influence, and Japan was forcibly opened, but people in those two areas were still acknowledged as being part of their respective homelands. In Africa, and in places like Southeast Asia that have had more problems, local states were usually completely annihilated, and the Europeans substituted in new nations and institutions that were designed purely for the sake of imperialism. That's also why you see tribalism more than nationalism in many of these countries; the nations they have aren't even their own, but rather ones forced upon them by the very people who destroyed what would have been their countries. In short, if you want to pick the most important reason for Africa's present condition, it's that imperialism there was far more brutal even than in Asia. (Although not as much the Americas, what with the mass extermination and pandemics and such. However, you can't mess up the natives if you leave virtually no natives alive.)
This is getting infuriating, my arguments are all dodged, and people keep saying all cultures are equal? Once you use an objective criteria as in : the ability to achieve economic growth and development, it becomes very obvious which cultures are good, which ones bad.
When nations attempted to moderenise, they also had massive shifts in culture, simply due to the shock of western philosophy
Do you think the Samurai feudal culture in the 1700s was the same as the 1900 militaristic imperialism in Japan, the same as the 2000s pacified Japan?
China, in 1900 was swept up in a nationalisitic and republican zeal ,by 1950s they were driven by a utopian communist dream, after massive famines and horrors, did they finally learn pragmatism and capitalism.
Try telling some modern chinese they are a group of zealous communists, that will be an insult, because you are trivialising their bloody lessons and sacrifices to CHANGE their past inferior culture. But according to some people, the changes didn't matter! The rabid commie egilitarianism in the 1950s is very 'equal' to the capitalist pragmatic modern culture of china.
Even children's reactions change over time in response to stimulus and education, you think cultures can't do the same? You think some semi-agrainian African culture can adapt to industrialisation just as fast as the education respecting confucian East Asians can? And if even East Asians were led astray in their path to development, without colonisation, why do you think Africans would have fared any better?

You miss the entire point of bringing up east asians, it is obviously agreed upon that they were the set of nations outside Europe that was best suited for modernisation, and they weren't even colonised. STILL, it took them centuries to adapt themselves and changed their culture drastically, in order to finally start modernising. Now you are suggesting SS-africa could do everything much faster than East Asia? If only colonsiation didn't touch it.

Of course, colonisation did have a negative effect for vast majority of countries, but even without colonisation, Africa today will only be marginally better. Without colonisation there is still liberalism and communism lurking on the horizon, ready to destroy social structures. What even makes you so sure that no African Japan will pop up and start another huge destructive great african war? Blame colonialism for everything, when its actually the least of developing nation's troubles.
 
Last edited:

Evie HJ

Cartographer of New Worlds
78 Badges
Jun 14, 2006
4.890
930
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Sengoku
  • Deus Vult
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Fortunately, there are quite a number of them left alive, despite the huge death toll.

Somewhat less fortunately, yeah, their situation is every inch as messed up as you'd imagine.
 

Bragi

Major
98 Badges
May 23, 2012
720
823
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • March of the Eagles
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
OK..
Strange thread..
African cultures in 1444 just differed in their technical developement and in structure of their society. This leads to different numbers in this game concerning technological advance to abstract technological difference between specific areas of said time period. Nowhere is stated or intended that these numbers are related to a kind of value of its inhabitants or cultural inheritage.
Whats the problem here?
 

Evie HJ

Cartographer of New Worlds
78 Badges
Jun 14, 2006
4.890
930
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Sengoku
  • Deus Vult
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
More like, people feel that a simplification like tech rate can come off as racist since it can be read to imply that West Africans were destined to always be slower, less developed than Europeans (ie, inferior).

Other people, who shall not be named, who feel African societies were actually inferior, have been gleffully dousing that fire in oil.

It's not so much about not understanding what they read as it is about not liking it.
 

eon47

Colonel
107 Badges
Jan 24, 2013
1.064
637
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV
More like, people feel that a simplification like tech rate can come off as racist since it can be read to imply that West Africans were destined to always be slower, less developed than Europeans (ie, inferior).

Other people, who shall not be named, who feel African societies were actually inferior, have been gleffully dousing that fire in oil.

It's not so much about not understanding what they read as it is about not liking it.
Eh, just to clarify, I'm not one of the people who has an issue with tech groups. They're problematic in that they're deterministic and not always historically accurate, but I don't think they're racist, and I can live with them in the game. I just have a bad habit of getting too annoyed for my own good by that cultural inferiority stuff.
 

Bragi

Major
98 Badges
May 23, 2012
720
823
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • March of the Eagles
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
Eh, just to clarify, I'm not one of the people who has an issue with tech groups. They're problematic in that they're deterministic and not always historically accurate, but I don't think they're racist, and I can live with them in the game. I just have a bad habit of getting too annoyed for my own good by that cultural inferiority stuff.

Yeah, which is not a bad thing, but it is a shame that nearly every potentially interesting diskussion about game mechanics has to end in mutual accusions und hostilities.
No offense here, but I like this game and I would be glad to partake in interesting discussions about mechanics, strategies and stuff, but this is impossible in many many cases because of overreaction or the anacasm for self-portrayal.
Just stick to the damn topic and try to not discourage people here who want just discuss the bloody topic.

Edit: I don't mean "you, eon47", but rather anyone with destructive and discussion breaking behavior. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Last edited:

eon47

Colonel
107 Badges
Jan 24, 2013
1.064
637
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV
Yeah, which is not a bad thing, but it is a shame that nearly every potentially interesting diskussion about game mechanics has to end in mutual accusions und hostilities.
No offense here, but I like this game and I would be glad to partake in interesting discussions about mechanics, strategies and stuff, but this is impossible in many many cases because of overreaction or the anacasm for self-portrayal.
Just stick to the damn topic and try to not discourage people here who want just discuss the bloody topic.

Edit: I don't mean "you, eon47", but rather anyone with destructive and discussion breaking behavior. Sorry for the confusion.
You could mean me, eon47 and not be without basis. Shooting down cultural inferiority stuff to keep this place nice is good, but derailing the topic... I helped put out a fire, but I destroyed the house with water damage. I'm going to have to think about this, and just get out of this topic for starters. Thanks for posting this; it put things in perspective.

Edit: And sorry for contributing to the derailment, everyone.
 
Last edited:

Dr. B

Field Marshal
44 Badges
Apr 13, 2007
2.505
1.784
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
Tech groups... a heavy simplification of development, necessary in game to make it playable. Yes, it is true.

I'd like a superb totally dynamic interactive socio-economic-military historic development simulator too, but that is not possible.

In human history might always makes right. Colonialism, empire-building, exploitation or destruction of the weak by the strong is the determining factor.
He who can prosper by taking advantage inferior power will do this, again and again. It isn't pretty.

China, previously weaker than the west, are today doing the principially same thing as the west in Africa, shipping out vast quantities of cheap raw materials and selling back finished goods on a large scale.
It is a question of who has the power to enforce their will on others.
 

Bragi

Major
98 Badges
May 23, 2012
720
823
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • March of the Eagles
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
Thanks for posting this; it put things in perspective.

Your're welcome, glad I didn't offend you. Anytime later on an interesting topic :)

Back to topic: Yes, it is awsome! Combined with all the new stuff and tags and added provinces, this would be a interesting area to play in. I'm looking forward to interesting NI's for them as well!
Empire of Air, rise up into the.. well .. air :D
 

Mingmung

General
34 Badges
Aug 23, 2014
1.810
756
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Sub-Saharan tech level in 1618 is 11 according to twitch.
And Chinese tech level in 1618 is 11 in current version.

So its tech level in 1444 maybe 2, same as China.

Chinese probably got changed too mate. No worries, the penalties won't be the same.
 

Lamahorse

Functioning Alcoholic
75 Badges
Jun 2, 2010
1.444
1.452
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Surviving Mars
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
One needs to be very careful of reactionary historical revisionism.

Nationalism and history don't tend to have a happy coming together.