In the new 'The Art of War' Feature Presentation the Sub-Saharan techgroup only had a 60% malus on techs.
I really like this!
I really like this!
Sub-Saharan techgroup is now only +60%!
- Thread starter rulethechaos
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Were any other techgroup maluses visible? Would be kind of strange to see them on par with Chinese tech group.
Damn, I missed that part.
Warning: pure speculation!
I hope that they buffed everyone non-western to something like:
Eastern: +10%
Ottoman: +15%
Muslim: +20%
Indian: +30%
Chinese: +40%
Horde: +50%
Sub-Saharan: +60%
American: have no idea, but hopefully less than 100%
Although they probably just changed sub-Saharan to 60% and probably added a lower tech group for Central African states...
AWESOME!
On the other hand, I have seen a dev hovering mouse over South American tech group and saying something buy I don't know what exactly
Did anyone pay attention to this?
On the stream it is at about 01:32:20, he says the south american tech group is slower than it was before because you can get 100% tech bonus (from native mechanics?)AWESOME!
On the other hand, I have seen a dev hovering mouse over South American tech group and saying something buy I don't know what exactly
So now Africans are now only 40% less intelegent than europeans in Paradox's eyes?
A very small step in the right direction but tech groups based on race should be removed.
A very small step in the right direction but tech groups based on race should be removed.
Oh come on, that's a load of BS and you know it. You can't accurately model all the causes of the massive global tech discrepancies, so tech groups are there as a very rough model of the effects and they serve that purpose fine.
This is one of the stupidest post I have seen on this forum lol sorry but
While I embrace fighting with racism I hate when 'anti - racists' wanna change the goddamn HISTORY and facts about the world.
You should know why this system exists - to simulate Europe being the most dynamically developing part of the world in this period, to simulate it's socio - economical background creating scientific revolution. I know African pre - colonial history quite nice and while I embrace many its achievements it is obvious and clear that Subsaharan Africa was far, far beyond Europe in terms of science and technology. Sorry, it is just stupid to use the libraries of Timbuktu as the counterpart of freakin Bacon, Newton, Galileo etc. It is stupid to hide the fact that the entire Africa below Sahel had very few written languages even in 19th century and it is just lying for the sake of ideology that science/technology in the entire world was equal. No, it wasn't. Furthermore, while I am wholeheartedly against Eurocentrism, it is undisputed that Europe has been always more populated and richer than Africa and Americas, and has been always more... Ya know, How many universities existed in Subsaharan Africa (Timbuktu/Djenne are the only ones) or Aztec Empire? How developed mathematics were in Kongo?
Nobody here believes Africans are 'less intelligent' than Europeans because this is just scientifically wrong. It is however brutal fact that Europe - Middle East - Southern and Eastern Asia have been ALWAYS more populated, rich and more 'civilized' than all other areas of the world combined. Making all countries in the world having the same tech possibilities would be extremely retarded and would destroy historical aspects of the game - why?
Because in 16th century countless sophisticated mechanisms of geography, societies, economy, intellectual capital or just horrible govern decisions (Ming falling in the stagnation) made Europe the most dynamically developing part of the world, and you can't run from this truth. It is obvious Africans/American Indians/freakin every nation are the same human beings with the same mental capabilities, but mentioned countless variables made technological development extremely different in various part of the world.
If you wanna Zulu having the same technological possiblities of England, play Civilization games. EU4 is freaking HISTORICAL game and you can't escape from facts via ideology.
Also, no, all parts of the world being equal is NOT the right direction and it will never happen in EU4 in the same way you don't have tanks in 1444. In 15th century Kongo - by the way, quite impressive kingdom - had no way to becoming as developed as Europe, as it has no intellectual traditions, no universities, no concept of science (as established by ancient classical civilisations, from Egypt and India to Greece) and no freakin Greek/Roman intellectual legacy to create calculus.
This is what you want? Extremely simplifying history and making SF from a historical game? Making Kongo developing calculus and heliocentrism from thin air, without having any mathematical traditions - or maybe Sioux suddenly creating brilliant artillery despite no access to proper metallurgy? What the hell are you talking about? This is not freakin Civilization (which is, by the way, very good game series)
Your postulates will be never achieved because removing all technological historical differences from EU4 for the sake of wrongly understood anti - racism is like removing Royal Marriages for the sake of feminism - it is just falsyfying the history for the sake of ideology. It would be simply lying.
By the way, remember, I say this as very anti - Eurocentric anti - racist person who loves buffed America/Africa/Indonesia AOW (okay, yeah +100% tech cost for Songhai was too much) - this says something.
Last edited:
Hey, Paradox could always use worldwide IQ scores as their basis for tech advancement. :roll eyes: What do you want, Zulus sailing up the Seine so they can capture Paris with their muskets and cannon?
This. That would be weird.
Also, did the devs ever mentioned a new tech group for South East Asia ? I still find it odd to see Indonesian sultanates sharing their techs and units with Ming.
All European writing systems were imported from Asia, but literacy isn't really that important.
19th century Africa was destroyed by exploitation and European diseases, its a terrible model for Africa in any other period.
No it isn't, Europe was poorer and less populated than Africa in Roman times where Europe couldn't support large cities without African grain imports. Carthage and various Muslim factions conquered large regions of Spain from Africa, the Vandals embarked on a risky invasion of Africa because Spain wasn't good enough for them.
The Americas were probably more populated than Europe before the conquest and they're more populated now despite large areas not having recovered to pre-conquest levels.
Europe having the best tech rate is relevant to EU because its about the period where Europe was the most dynamic region of the planet (except for the Americas but that was due to European domination), but Europe hasn't always been economically powerful and a lot of the reason Europe grew so much in this period is because it started out behind.
Giving Europe better tech in a game not set between 1492 and 1945 would be as ridiculous as giving Africa on par tech during this period.
Tecnically there were no universities outside of Europe because university is a European name. Its not the right question, the Aztec Empire had schools and advanced sciences.
Minor point - Europa had and still has, a much higher population density. 42 million km2 versus 10 million km2
Getting back on topic: technology in EU4 is like gravity - all it takes is a little push. I think that the tech penalties I wrote above are more than enough, coupled with rich provinces, good trade nodes and lucky nations, for European nations to dominate the world. My guess is that Paradox wanted to hold the hands of new players by giving them a much larger benefit.
Minor point - Europa had, and still has a much higher population density. 42 million km2 versus 10 million km2
Getting back on topic: technology in EU4 is like gravity - all it takes is a little push. I think that the tech penalties I wrote above are more than enough, coupled with rich provinces, good trade nodes and lucky nations, for European nations to dominate the world. My guess is that Paradox wanted to hold the hands of new players by giving them a much larger benefit.
I feel like new players don't need a large tech advantage like that, but I also think a nation that sits comfortably in Europe and attempts to play with Europe is a better way to learn the game than going overseas and invading natives.
New players still lose to NA tribes as England sometimes ^_^. It doesn't help that PI essentially hides basic rules most of us on the forum take for granted, like combat width or the relative importance of tactics + general pips vs other factors.
I suppose my starting days have skewed my opinion on the matter then, considering I started as Savoy and kept trying until I stopped getting my teeth kicked in.
This indeed a good step into the right direction, but still it does not depict Africa right. Paradox have to split up the Sub-Saharan tech-group to represent this people well. I would suggest "Sahel-African" and "South African". The Sahel-African techgroup depicts all African empires stretching in the Sahelzone, means the Savannah kingdoms just like Mali, Songhai, Kanem-Bornu, but also Makuria, the Ethiopian and the Somali kingdoms. These realms had a very active contact with the Muslim north, so i would propose to give them 45-50%. Sahel Africans were not less educated then their Arabic neighbors, and they were also eager to import muskets (Just as the Sultanate of Adal did to almost succesfuly invading Ethiopia in the 1530's) and other advanced technology coming through the Muslims and the Europeans.
The "South African" techgroup depict the jungle kingdoms like Benin, Congo etc. Because they were more isolated in the beginning and they never used horses in warfare (Because of the tsetse fly) they should keep the 60 or mabye even get lower percent.
Btw. i am wondering why "Nomads" have a mali of only 75%. These dudes are easily the most backward culture in EU4 timeframe, i even see the Native Americans (Atleast the Mesoamricans) culturaly superior to them.
The "South African" techgroup depict the jungle kingdoms like Benin, Congo etc. Because they were more isolated in the beginning and they never used horses in warfare (Because of the tsetse fly) they should keep the 60 or mabye even get lower percent.
Btw. i am wondering why "Nomads" have a mali of only 75%. These dudes are easily the most backward culture in EU4 timeframe, i even see the Native Americans (Atleast the Mesoamricans) culturaly superior to them.
Sub-Saharan is only West Africa in AoW, East Africa is Muslim/Indian tech (with African units).