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Galaahd

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My suggestion is that the Duchy of Apulia starts with Primogeniture in 1066 rather than with Gavelkind.

All his titles were inherited by his second son, Roger Borsa, the first son he had with Sichelgaita. The first born son Bohemond was by all means removed from the succession, and he went on to carve a kingdom for himself in Antioch.
Right now if Robert kicks the bucket before he can change succession law, southern Italy is split between many independent rulers, while in history it remained whole, at least on the continent.
 

zijistark

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Good to know, thanks. I'll do that for the next update, for which I hope to have some new aspects for the mod, rather than just patching in fixes.

Though, I'm curious, why the name change?
Just to be consistent with how we've changed the user_dirs (to always have a HIP_ prefix somewhere in them, no matter what external mods are enabled or a non-default installation folder, so the installer can automatically clean all relevant caches on a new install) and make the names still indicate HIP is in use when a user choose to install to a non-default installation folder.
 

Zireael

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Kingdom of Poland/all start dates/agnatic-cognatic gavelkind/agnatic-cognatic primogeniture

Gavelkind is what caused Casimir the Restorer to be necessary and to have this nickname.
 

Cormac91

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Is this compatible with the latest patches and version of HIP?
Probably not. I haven't been keeping up with the latest updates for CK2 or HIP. Times have been hectic with college work over the last few weeks and playing CK2 and updating mods have been the last things on my mind. However, I might be able to find time to make an update in the next 2 or 3 days. I realise it's not a big mod or anything but real life has put me in a bit of a chokehold recently. I promise to update it soon.

Kingdom of Poland/all start dates/agnatic-cognatic gavelkind/agnatic-cognatic primogeniture

Gavelkind is what caused Casimir the Restorer to be necessary and to have this nickname.
Noted, thanks. Might be able to fit some more stuff (laws, etc.) into the next update, rather than just patching it for HIP and CK2.
 

Cormac91

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Release v0.2.5

Finally, it's here!

Enjoy!

  • updated HSL for the current CK2 and HIP release (as of 04/06/2014)
  • made titular Ireland tribal
  • removed the Lordship of Ireland
  • included independency for older HIP versions in the mod file to help with backwards compatibility
  • changed The Duchy of Brittany's gender succession law from agnatic to agnatic-cognatic
  • Duchy of Brittany: 1185 - primogeniture succession
  • Duchy and County of Apulia: 1042 - primogeniture succession
  • Kingdom of Poland: 1042 - primogeniture succession

Let me know if there are any problems.
 
Last edited:

ekorovin

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All Russian principalities should start in Agnatic in 1066 and all Eastern Slav tribes in 867 probably too, all instances of female ruler in pre-Peter times were regencies over the infant princes.
Do you have any plans to delve into the mess of Russian succession system in the future?
 

Cardinal Sin

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I suggest all German holdings should be agnatic at least in 867 and 1066 - due to the strictness of Salic laws, it was not before the 14th century that in Germany, women like Margaret of Tyrol and Joan of Brabant got to rule in their own right.
 

Cormac91

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You're welcome! :)

All Russian principalities should start in Agnatic in 1066 and all Eastern Slav tribes in 867 probably too, all instances of female ruler in pre-Peter times were regencies over the infant princes.
Do you have any plans to delve into the mess of Russian succession system in the future?
I wouldn't mind moving my mod beyond North-Western Europe, though that's where most of my historical knowledge and interest is based. I would be very greatful and it would be a great help if you could provide a list of counties/duchies/kingdoms, the laws, historical sources, etc. of the lands you are interested in, if you want to see the changes you'd like to be made.

I suggest all German holdings should be agnatic at least in 867 and 1066 - due to the strictness of Salic laws, it was not before the 14th century that in Germany, women like Margaret of Tyrol and Joan of Brabant got to rule in their own right.
So all of the Carolingian Kingdoms? HRE? France? Italy? Any particular duchies/counties? Again, my knowledge is lacking in this area, so if you could post specifcs: the kingdoms/duchies/etc., laws, sources, etc.

I don't mind putting in peoples wishes for historically acurate succession laws, but I need your help on the specifics if you want to see it in my mod. Historical sources are important, I need to see the evidence, and researching the evidence myself can take up a lot of time I don't have. Otherwise, I do enjoy updating this mod, and learning new bits of history is always a pleasure. Though history is very broad, and not always precise, and often there is a great lack of information and no evidence, but we can also speculate to best simulate historical accuracy, when there is no record. So, the less tedious the work is for me, the more likely your wishes will appear in the next update, and the more likely an update will come out sooner.

Thank you everybody for the interest so far. This mod could get bigger... with the support from you.
 
Last edited:

Cardinal Sin

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Well, I suppose the starting point for all the Frankish kingdoms are the Salic laws. The Salic law was a legal codex which Clovis and his successors built up in the course of history. It contains, as one of its most notorious provisions, the fact that women cannot inherit anything.

The problem is of course that this was not rigidly enforced, but followed in the semi-salic way: this means that women can only inherit if there are no men (including brothers, nephews, uncles, cousins etc) eligible for inheritance. Unfortunately, this does not exist in CKII; so I suppose this can only be reflected in rulers having agnatic succesion, but changing their succession law to agnatic-cognatic once the family "runs out".

I am pretty certain that this law applies to:
-France
-Germany
-Frisia
-Bavaria
-Lotharingia
-Bohemia

...and all the duchies and counties in them.

Some examples of rulers whose daughters did not inherit within those de jure kingdoms:

-Regarding France, the causus belli for the 100 years war is well known - suffice to say that it unequivocally decided that the succession in France really was agnatic rather than agnatic-cognatic.

-In Bohemia, the best example after the permanent adoption of primogeniture in 1198 would be Charles IV., who ruled from 1346 and up until 1361 only had a daughter (Catherine), no son. Only in 1361 a son was born to him, Wenceslas. Before that, it was utterly clear that his heir was not his daughter but his brother, John Henry of Moravia. A source that says that as late as 1361 Charles' heir was his brother (and his brother's sons), not his daughter, can be found here, at the bottom of the page: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...epage&q=john henry heir of charles iv&f=false

-Henry III, landgrave of Hesse ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_III._(Hessen) ) only had daughters, so his titles passed to his cousin. I quote the German Wikipedia page as the English one incorrectly states that he had no legitimate issue.

- Rudolf II, duke of Saxony ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_II,_Duke_of_Saxe-Wittenberg ) had daughters but no sons, and his title passed to his brother Wenceslas.

- Lotharingia is an interesting case. Antoine de Vaudemont ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine,_Count_of_Vaudémont ) fully expected to inherit his cousin's duchy, but it was usurped by his cousin's son-in-law, who was backed by France. In CKII terms, you could probably say that in the last minute, Charles II of Lorraine switched from agnatic to agnatic-cognatic.

- There is also a switcheroo case in Holland. William I ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_I,_Count_of_Holland ) inherited Holland from his brother, but only after a bitter struggle against his niece (his brother's only daughter) Ada, who had the power of Loon behind her through her husband.

- Rudolf Hesso of Baden ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hesso,_Margrave_of_Baden-Baden ) died with only daughters; his county went to a cousin of his.

All of this makes a pretty good case for agnatic succession in those kingdoms; some switching of crown laws may have been about a bit later, but this seemed to have been out of the ordinary, bitterly contested, and was only ever likely to succeed if huge forces (like the Emperor and the French king) backed up that decision. I could find more examples, but I think this may do to back up my request :)
 
Last edited:

Bki

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So, Brittany... I can understand how it can be seen as complicated... I honestly think primogeniture would be more adapted (but maybe with some claimants to the titles) :

Nominoë, who was made ruler of Brittany by Louis the Pious, was succeeded by his son Eripsoë. Eripsoë's cousin, Salomon, plotted to kill him and took his title. His own son-in-law, along with Eripsoë son-in-law (the fact that they were the sons in laws would make me think that agnatic-cognatic would be more suited, personally), plotted to kill Salomon (both Salomon and Eripsoë would be killed while taking sanctuary in a church. Maybe karma truly is a thing), and then fought for the throne, and their sons, Judicaël and Alain, continued the fight. When Judicaël died, Alain became recognized as king of the Bretons (and would become Alain the great). After Alain came the norman invasion, and it is his grandson Alain II which would come an liberate the duchy later on.

This is chaotic, but when there's been non-violent succession, it seems to be from father to son (or grandfather to grandson). The game begin at the end of Salomon's reign. If they exist, having Pascweten and Gurvant as claimant, and agnatic-cognatic primogeniture could model things relatively well. Of course, elective could work for the "ton of claimants plotting" part, too.

By 1066, though, it is definitively Agnatic-cognatic primogeniture with Hoel becoming duc thanks to his marriage with the sister of Conan II. At least, that's what is the closest in game-term.
 

EmperorTojo

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Kingdom of Poland should have seniority after some point. I am uncertain if this is already in the game since I am unable to check now but I do not think so. Still, Seniority succession is sort of 'broken' if looked at in historical point of view. In Poland, the 'high ducal' title went to the oldest member of the dynasty but they did not inherit the predecessor's ducal land, which went to their sons and so forth. Could this be changed to work in this fashion, somehow?

Here's some stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seniorate_Province
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testament_of_Bolesław_III_Krzywousty
 

Cardinal Sin

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Kingdom of Poland should have seniority after some point. I am uncertain if this is already in the game since I am unable to check now but I do not think so. Still, Seniority succession is sort of 'broken' if looked at in historical point of view. In Poland, the 'high ducal' title went to the oldest member of the dynasty but they did not inherit the predecessor's ducal land, which went to their sons and so forth. Could this be changed to work in this fashion, somehow?

Here's some stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seniorate_Province
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testament_of_Bolesław_III_Krzywousty
I think agnatic seniority for the kingdom of Poland, together with agnatic gavelkind for the duchies and counties (duchies and subduchies seem to have passed to sons, who split the land amongst themselves, letting no women inherit), would work quite well, even though of course seniority does not work all that great in the game :) Poland should probably get agnatic primogeniture after the late 13th century though.
 

EmperorTojo

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I think agnatic seniority for the kingdom of Poland, together with agnatic gavelkind for the duchies and counties (duchies and subduchies seem to have passed to sons, who split the land amongst themselves, letting no women inherit), would work quite well, even though of course seniority does not work all that great in the game :) Poland should probably get agnatic primogeniture after the late 13th century though.
This could work, but yeah, I am pretty dissapointed how seniority works right now since it doesn't really have any cons right now.. Elective is more advantageous than this, but yeah.
 

Tsar Monarchist

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Kingdom of Poland/all start dates/agnatic-cognatic gavelkind/agnatic-cognatic primogeniture

Gavelkind is what caused Casimir the Restorer to be necessary and to have this nickname.
I'm sorry, but you are totally wrong!

Maybe it is Casimir the Restorer who "restored" Poland after it's fall in 1030's, but you can't say that he limited the inheritance to first-born only. Because if that happened, Władysław Herman and Mieszko Kazimierzowic (third son of Casimir, died soon after his father) wouldn't get their domains. And this is widely accepted historical fact you actually denies.

So no, no primogeniture in Poland until 1320, and even then it would be somewhat disputable to say. Gavelkind max to 1138 (it should rather be changed even before the date), and Seniority right after.

And this is when problem starts. Because in 13th century polish princes/dukes didn't control the whole country anymore. Last who we can call Princeps Poloniae (senior prince/duke of Poland) was Leszek the White, died in 1227. Since then, dukes of Kraków (capital) lost position of senior rulers, with other dukes staying independent - what might rather be interpreted as "no Poland anymore".

It was Przemysł II of Greater Poland first to crown himself King of Poland back again. And since coronation in 1320, Władysław the Elbow-High managed to rebuild the kingdom permanently. With barely reunited country, king's strong position and no other heirs, it was obvious that the title goes to Władysław's (only remained) son, Casimir the Great.

What is the main problem with Poland, that we didn't have clearly any of the systems introduced in CK2. Nobles always had something to say while choosing heir. It's been strongly seen in each duchy during fragmentation of Poland, and later after death of Casimir the Great. And before 1138, the king/duke had the right to pick the heir of his choice (causa of Mieszko II Lambert, who wasn't the oldest son; we don't know though if his brothers, Bezprym and Otto, had been given their own domains before they were expelled).

But as we don't have anything more appropriate, I claim for Poland as Agnatic Gavelkind until ca. 1137, Agnatic Seniority until 1294 and Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture since then.

May also be Agnatic-Cognatic Feudal Elective in 1294-1314 (to emulate inheritance agreements with Henryk IV of Silesia and Vaclav II of Bohemia).
 

Elm0__

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Sounds good to me. But I really hope that seniority can be improved somehow.
Maybe some workaround, for example: when kingdom runs seniority succession, every time new king succeeds to throne he gets event switching laws to gavelkind/primogeniture in all his holdings except kingdom capital county/duchy. Or even better, restore his previous succession type (I don't know if thats possible to trace, though).
 

Ruwaard

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@ Cardinal Sin: Salic law does not exclude women from inheriting anything, it excludes them from inheriting land (directly).
 

Ecnahc

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Is this mod compatible with the latest patch and version of HIP as of August 10th, 2014?