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Fantaisie

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I've been wondering what the succession laws for Aquitaine were. The only link I've found is this wikipedia link.
As a successor state to the Roman province of Gallia Aquitania and the Visigothic Kingdom (418–721), Aquitania (Aquitaine) and Languedoc (Toulouse) inherited the Visigothic Law and Roman Law which had combined to allow women more rights than their contemporaries in other parts of Europe. Particularly with the Liber Judiciorum, which was codified in 642 and 643 and expanded in the Code of Recceswinth in 653, women could inherit land and title and manage it independently from their husbands or male relations, dispose of their property in legal wills if they had no heirs, and women could represent themselves and bear witness in court by age 14 and arrange for their own marriages by age 20.[2] As a consequence, male-preference primogeniture was the practiced succession law for the nobility.
I have no idea if it's correct or not. According to this, it also applies to Toulouse.
 

Cormac91

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antidualist

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Carrying the discussion of Aquitaine on from the Ireland thread I think that the best way to represent Aquitaine's dissolution is simply to have the title destroyed if the holder also holds France/West Francia and also to prevent it from being created if one also holds France/East Francia. That should be enough to allow dejure drift to represent Aquitaine's gradual absorption into France while also allowing the kingdom to be resurrected if an independent duke controls enough of the land. Might also be worth having a Kingdom Level titular title with a Duke localisation (like the dejure German Kingdoms) so that Aquitaine can be recreated even after it dejure drifts. I guess conditions like those used for Ireland could prevent both existing at the same time? It might be worth making an exception for Occitain rulers but I'm not sure about that, it seems like France was always considered the higher title whether the ruler was Frankish or not. Doing this would help modern France to stay united rather than keeping it split as it is at present.

In a similar vein it might be good to prevent the holders of East Francia/Germany and Lotharingia from creating their dejure kingdom titles as this prevents drift into the dejure kingdoms and also stops the holders ending up using the de jure titles rather than the titular one's (although I think the second problem can be fixed by giving Germany and Lotharingia high dignity). It might also be good to dissolve those titular kingdoms if they are ever held by the HRE emperor given that they are really just the successor titles.

What do people think about also dissolving any de jure kingdom titles that are held by the Holy Roman emperor, I'm not a expert in the history of the HRE but it seems like this could represent the gradual decline of the stem duchies under the HRE. But maybe some other mechanic is needed for this, not sure. Perhaps just preventing the HRE from creating any of the de jure kingdom titles is enough?
 

Ruwaard

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@ antidualist: regarding the HRE, there are a few issues. Franconia, Saxony, Bavaria and Swabia were drifting* into East Francia, which would evolve into the German Kingdom. Later Lotharingia (Upper Lotharingia, Lower Lotharingia and Frisia) drifted* into the same kingdom. However Bohemia should not drift*, so IMHO should be more easily creatable. (*= I like the general idea, but I dislike the plain 100 years, IMHO the period would ideally have been editable by modifiers (same culture, religion etc.))
A Holy Roman Emperor could achieve 4 Coronations, the ''Roman-German''** Royal coronation (initially at (Bad) Aachen, later Frankfurt am Main), the Italian Royal Coronation, the Burgundian Royal Coronation and the Roman Imperial Coronation. (**= de facto emperor elect). So IMHO Italy and Burgundy, like Bohemia should be treated differently too.
Maybe make the stem duchy 'royal' titles, uncreatable when they become titular, but Bohemia, Burgundy***, Lotharingia*** and Frisia*** should remain creatable. (***= only under special conditions). Both the German Kingdom and Italy should be hardest ones to create, in fact no vassal of the HRE should be able to do so, given the importance both had for the position of Emperor..
 

superskierpat

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I think thats a good way to do it, if Aquitaine and France is held by a king who isnt basque, occitan or catalan, which are geographically and, except for basque, culturally close, then destroy the title of Aquitaine.
In the contrary, if an occitan, catalan or basque king holds france and aquitaine, then he should either have a choice between france and aquitaine or just disable the event that destroys aquitaine.
 

antidualist

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@Ruwaard I think you're ideas are interesting, especially making Franconia, Saxony, Bavaria and Swabia and maybe Upper Lotharingia, Lower Lotharingia and Frisia non restorable once destroyed by the HRE while leaving the possibility of recreating the other titles even if they become titular.

The problem is that you then get a situation where the kingdom of Germany could be detached from the HRE title, which seems wrong. I think on another thread someone said that the current setup treats the HRE and Kingdom of German as synonymous with the Kingdom level de jure duchies representing the higher tier of dukes. On that option you could have Germany and Lotharingia be destroyed and unrecreatable if held by the HREmperor or one of their vassals (which would represent the fact that the HRE is the successor of both kingdoms). The dejure kingdom Duchy titles would remain formable by HRE vassals (even if titular) but would not be creatable by the HREmperor themselves. This would mean that if no HRE was formed but the kingdoms of Germany and Lorraine existed for 100 years they could become the new dejure kingdoms but if the HRE does form relatively quickly the ducal kingdoms would remain as the next level down but cannot drift into each other. Having the dejure kingdoms as reform able if titular would also allow for them to be ressurected if the HRE is formed after dejure drift.

Really I'd prefer to play with no Ahistorical empires and for the HRE title itself to be a titular empire that can be created by holding 2 or more of the Eastern Karling realms e.g. Lotharingia, East Francia, Lombardia , Burgundy & Bavaria so that it spread in a more organic way. There may however be issues there and perhaps there's an argument that given how close to formation the empire was by 876, and it's importance later in the game it's worth retaining it as deJure but uncreated representing the fact that it was the natural successor to a united Karling empire and that empire existed not long before the game start.

After thinking about this I'm now not sure what the best way to go is, it's a complicated issue and I'm a bit unclear about dejure drift of kingdoms within an empire. It would probably be best if holding an empire title just removed dejure kingdom drift but I don't think this is how it works. Maybe Paradox will let us mod dejure times more in the future which would be great.
 

antidualist

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@superskierpat I think the best thing to do for the occitaine, basque and catalan cultures is just not to give them that event and let them retain both kingdoms existing. An alternative is that the event would only fire for Frankish kings (and maybe German too) but I'd be in favor of making the dissolution of Aquataine more rather than less likely to happen. There may be an issue here in terms of the creation of the empire level France but I think that, considering that no claim to empire was ever made by the French kings, this is probably accurate.
 

Cormac91

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Updated to v0.2.3b

  • updated HSL compatibility with HIP
  • removed some unnecessary files and added some smaller files, making the archive more compact
Nothing new has been added, as I've been quite busy. But keep making suggestions, if you want to see new stuff to be added, and it might just happen.

Edit: I forgot I had added this: added localisations for some titles for Ireland, e.g. Kingdom of Ireland -> Ríocht na Éire (not exactly grammatically correct, but the best I can do due to the way the game handles linguistical localisations)
 
Last edited:

vyshan

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Cormac, you may want to double check Ireland's set-up. when I loaded up your mod it seemed to use the Dejur Ireland instead of Titular.
 

andqui

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Unfortunately the mediafire link isn't working for me. Other mediafire downloads are ok.
 

Cormac91

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Unfortunately the mediafire link isn't working for me. Other mediafire downloads are ok.
not working for me ether
That's strange. The link was working fine for me. Anyway, I've made a new link. Hopefully this one will work.

Edit: There does seem to be a problem with the download. The link is no longer working. I'll try to fix this issue. One of the files might be corrupt or something.
 
Last edited:

Cormac91

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Cormac, you may want to double check Ireland's set-up. when I loaded up your mod it seemed to use the Dejur Ireland instead of Titular.
It seems you are right. I'm not sure why this is happening now as it seemed to be fine before, but I might know what's causing this problem and will provide a fix soon.
 

Cormac91

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Updated to V0.2.4b

Updated to V0.2.4b
  • fixed a compatibility issue between the HIP.mod file and the HSL.mod file
The problem was that the old HIP.mod file used to have:
Code:
name = "Historical Immersion Project"
The latest one has:
Code:
name = "HIP - Historical Immersion Project"
I had failed to notice this when I had updates HSL, so the dependency wasn't defined properly.
 

zijistark

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Updated to V0.2.4b
  • fixed a compatibility issue between the HIP.mod file and the HSL.mod file
The problem was that the old HIP.mod file used to have:
Code:
name = "Historical Immersion Project"
The latest one has:
Code:
name = "HIP - Historical Immersion Project"
I had failed to notice this when I had updates HSL, so the dependency wasn't defined properly.
FYI, you can include them both as dependencies for backward-compatibility. Only the one the user selects in the launcher will take effect.
 

Cormac91

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FYI, you can include them both as dependencies for backward-compatibility. Only the one the user selects in the launcher will take effect.
Good to know, thanks. I'll do that for the next update, for which I hope to have some new aspects for the mod, rather than just patching in fixes.

Though, I'm curious, why the name change?