Sub-ideologies

[Landsturmamrika]

Hi community,

I was browsing the stickied section of this forum and stumbled upon the Hearts of Iron IV's Wiki and found something that deeply intrigued me, Political sub-ideologies. Does anybody know if these sub-ideologies are already in the game's files somewhere, are planned to be implemented, or perhaps are in a WWII mod?

Communism:

• Marxism: "Encompassing a broad spectrum of economic and historical views, Marxist politics seek to apply the theories of Karl Marx to political practice. Class struggle and the need for transition to a society based on common ownership of the means of production characterize these ideologies."
• Leninism: "A political ideology based in Marxist thought, Leninism seeks to establish a socialist state by a vanguard party leading a revolution overthrowing capitalist society. Once in power, the party rules through a system whereby policies are open for internal debate until a decision has been made."
• Stalinism: "Identifying as a form of government applying and developing Marxist-Leninist policies, Stalinism emphasizes rapid industrialization and collectivization as well as the need for a strong, authoritarian socialist state to purge any counter-revolutionary elements."
• Anti-revisionism: "A reaction to the many ideologies claiming to be successors to Marxism, Anti-Revisionism advocates retaining key elements of original revolutionary theory. Mainly opposing incorporation of capitalist economic elements into socialist states, the ideology is defined as much by what it isn't as what it is."
• Anarchist Communism: "An ideology embracing the idea of communism as a stateless society, Anarchist Communism eschews the idea of a transitionary socialist state and favors a society based on voluntary associations and mutual aid."

Democracy:

• Conservatism: "Considering rapid changes to society to be potentially harmful, conservatism espouses tradition and moderate reforms, sometimes advocating a return to old moral values."
• Liberalism: "With a long philosophical tradition of valuing personal liberty, liberalism views safeguarding these rights as the primary function of the state."
• Socialism: "Striving for equality and a socialist state by reformist means, democratic socialism aims to abolish or mitigate the effects of capitalism with public mandate."

Fascism:

• Nazism: "Rooted in extreme nationalism, National Socialism is driven by ideas of Germanic supremacy. It promotes aggressive expansionism and a totalitarian state where the people are united under a leader with absolute power, the Führer."
• Fascism: "Encompassing a variety of ultra-nationalist movements, fascism typically venerates devotion to the state and uniting the people under a strong leader."
• Falangism: "An authoritarian ideology with traits of fascism and conservatism, Falangism values national and Catholic identity."
• Rexism: "Strongly opposed to both liberal and communist ideals, Rexism is a staunchly conservative nationalist movement who advocate a corporatist economic policy. Employing increasingly populist and authoritarian rhetoric, their ideals are shifting closer to other fascist movements."

Why are these important? Wasn't WWII just a battle between three factions? How will this impact gameplay? I think one of the shortcomings of Hearts of Iron IV is a lack of flavor. I believe that these sub-ideologies could greatly affect gameplay as well. For example a Socialist democratic country would have higher relationships with the USSR or PRC and could enjoy better trade bonuses as well or are more likely to receive military aid, equipment, and or lend-lease. Wouldn't this make the Spanish Civil War, for example, much more nuanced than fascists vs. communists? I think the level of political orientation you have to left or right should influence the USSR and Italy's proclivity to support you.


TLDR

EXAMPLE 1: a Falangist Spanish for Nationalist Spain will be more likely to receive Italian and German support than say Conservative Democrat government. In the same vein, a Leninist government for Republican Spain will garner more support from the USSR. A socialist democratic government would still increase the odds of Soviet support, but less than a Leninist one. Whereas a liberal democratic government would receive more support from France and the UK.

http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Ideology#Sub-ideologies_3

 

[Holy.Death]

Aren't these just different (flavor) names for the all three major ideologies (communism, fascism, democracy)? I know Hearts of Iron 3 did use such labels when governments changed.

 

[Landsturmamrika]

Aren't these just different (flavor) names for the all three major ideologies (communism, fascism, democracy)? I know Hearts of Iron 3 did use such labels when governments changed.

The sub-ideologies would impact relationships along a political spectrum to include diplomacy, trade, lend-lease, independence guarantees, and civil wars. The current system is functional, which was great when the game released, but now a year into the game we are left with a system that is really simplistic, inaccurate, and personally unsatisfying from a gameplay perspective. The current political system in the game feels like something made for a beta build of the game.

 

[balmung60]

They're basically political parties, at least for democracies - in the US elections, you can choose between a Republican candidate (conservative) or a Democratic candidate (always FDR until he dies) (liberalism), and I think the UK can make the same choice between the Conservative Party and the Labour Party.

For Communism and Fascism, they're essentially the local flavor of those ideologies (eg. Hoxha in Albania is Anti-Revisionist, while Browder in America is Stalinist).

 

[Tisifoni12]

I haven't noticed any representation of the Labour Party in the UK, there seem to be the British Communist Party, the British Union of Fascists and the Conservative Party is the democratic option. Perhaps rather than identifying a particular party they could label it differently ?

 

[balmung60]

Okay, my bad there. For some reason, I seemed to recall the presence of other parties in Britain.

Other than that, in France, Daladier (Socialist) resigns after the Fall of France and Free France gets Reynaud (Liberalism).

Actually, looking at the relevant localization file, only two countries have more than one named party for the same general ideology - the USA, with the Democratic Party and the Republican Party for democratic ideology and Hungary, with the Hrorthy Government and the Arrow Cross Party for fascism AND Legitimists and the Függetlentségi és 48-as Párt for neutrality.

 

[Khevenhuller]

They're basically political parties, at least for democracies - in the US elections, you can choose between a Republican candidate (conservative) or a Democratic candidate (always FDR until he dies) (liberalism), and I think the UK can make the same choice between the Conservative Party and the Labour Party.

For Communism and Fascism, they're essentially the local flavor of those ideologies (eg. Hoxha in Albania is Anti-Revisionist, while Browder in America is Stalinist).

Afraid not. In the UK Stanley Baldwin has taken out all the Labour and Liberal Party supporters and had them shot by 1936. I do not recall reading anything about this, but in an age of 'alternative facts' I suppose truth has no validity and is just another competitor in a race of lies.

K

 

[Bernard95]

I recognize all of those from the game files. I forget what file it is, but it has a listing of those sub-ideologies and each one is just followed by braces. It basically looks like they declared the variables/objects but didn't code anything for them, which kind of makes me think they might go back and add some modifiers or something at a later point.

 

[Secret Master]

Afraid not. In the UK Stanley Baldwin has taken out all the Labour and Liberal Party supporters and had them shot by 1936.

Stop. You're making Winston Churchill blush.

More on topic:

We had sub ideologies in HOI3.... that didn't do anything. It was more or less a wasted mechanic.

Until ideology has more impact on the game, I don't think it's worth including. The OP's suggestions are basically just warming over the current mechanics.

We'd probably need something a bit closer to Vic2's political system for finer divisions in ideology to be worth including for anything other than flavor.

(In which case, I'll be the first to mod in Bonapartism for France just for the lulz.)

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

It would add lots of flavour and maybe turn the whole thing some more Vicky-esque. Which would be nice, too

 

[aono]

Wasn't WWII just a battle between three factions?

No it wasn't. It was a battle between two factions. All that "comintern" thing make me sick.
Thing is, what do we want more - grand politic game (more Vic-style, Kaiserreich shows how it can work) or wargame with little politic component. Personally I'm for first approach.

 

[Tisifoni12]

Rather than 'Conservative Party', 'Democrat Party', 'Social Democrats' have some generic label for 'plural democratic parties' ?

 

[kviiri]

No it wasn't. It was a battle between two factions. All that "comintern" thing make me sick.

While I agree in principle, I think a reasonably accurate description is "War between two factions" (Allies versus Axis) combined with "Race between two factions" (USSR and the Western powers). As Barbarossa stalled and the USSR started pushing back, the focus of the European theater shifted heavily - it was no longer just about beating the Germans, but beating the other Allied powers to Berlin to ensure a favorable post-war outcome.

 

[aono]

While I agree in principle, I think a reasonably accurate description is "War between two factions" (Allies versus Axis) combined with "Race between two factions" (USSR and the Western powers).

Why should USSR be represented as a "faction" here?
Not to mention that before WW2 there was no "race between USSR and Western powers". USSR tried to create it's industry (with western help, I should notice) and grab anything they can, and western nations didn't really were concerned.
Race between USSR and Western powers actually started AFTER WW2, and even after game timespan.

UPD: Auch, sorry, didn't actually got what did you meant.
Yeah, it would be an option if FACTION was a peace conference participant, not a country.

 

[Trappist4ever]

I think that the "Race between two factions" is referring to the point in WW2 where the USSR started to win on the eastern front, because the allies then started a "race for Berlin" to stop the Soviets from grabbing too much land.

The main goal was to present the allies as the liberators of Europe.

 

[Trappist4ever]

The race you are referring to is the Cold War, I think.

 

[aono]

I think that the "Race between two factions" is referring to the point in WW2 where the USSR started to win on the eastern front, because the allies then started a "race for Berlin" to stop the Soviets from grabbing too much land.

Yeah, I got it couple of minutes later, and wrote an UPD.
Thing is, it wasn't "faction vs. faction", it was "country vs faction" (and in-game it would be "country vs country vs country vs country...", because it's how current peace conference system works).

 

[kviiri]

Thing is, it wasn't "faction vs. faction", it was "country vs faction" (and in-game it would be "country vs country vs country vs country...", because it's how current peace conference system works).

Even a single-country faction is a faction! But nevertheless, I'm pretty sure they included the Comintern just to open a door towards alt-historical outcomes where USSR attacks the West or vice versa. I think it's a word-around, the faction system as it is lacks pretty much all semblance to realism.

 

[Trappist4ever]

I mean, the Soviet Union technically was a faction by itself (with the different SSRs in it, like Ukraine).
So I think the Comintern makes sense.

 

[aono]

But nevertheless, I'm pretty sure they included the Comintern just to open a door towards alt-historical outcomes where USSR attacks the West or vice versa.

Thing is, you don't need faction for this. USSR would have his puppets, and puppets can be called without faction. If we're saying about need of creating factions for some ahistorical non-puppet Communist countries who want to join USSR, well, today we have dynamic faction system.
I believe that starting factions (Allies where GB allied with it's puppets, Comintern where USSR allied with Mongolia and Tannu Tuva which should be USSR puppets, and Axis where Germany allied with itself) in current system is a relic from older games in series, where factions were static and you needed them for scripts.

I mean, the Soviet Union technically was a faction by itself (with the different SSRs in it, like Ukraine).

Well, game represents USSR as one state. Also let's make US a faction as well!
Seriously, if we had a faction called USSR, with integrated puppets of RSFSR for every other soviet republic, it would be better. Completly ahistorical in practical means, but better.