#StugLife,#RememberThe17th,#JusticeForSS

[Dianno5741]

Whipping out the E-peen because I downvote your non sensical P4 argument? Stug4 getting a 1200m buff was a great idea and giving them that while taking away the sk18 was a great move. Division isn't just a weak 352nd anymore.

You seem to think that because I don't support 1200m P4 buff, but I support a price decrease, I therefore don't support any German buffs. I just don't support ones from clear wehraboos that want a 1200m buff because "history" but ignore ALL THE REST OF IT. At least I agreed with Thonar a while back that the data he presented, all twenty forum pages of it, supported that the P4 Cannon is similar to the 76mm more than the 75mm. He seemed to be more frustrated that balancing is subjective to Paradox based on what they want to do and there's no "template" to balance.

The stug is a great example of two tanks with identical guns but one got 1200m range because balance. If you don't like it, go mod the game and recreate history. Otherwise it's a poor balance decision.

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

Whipping out the E-peen because I downvote your non sensical P4 argument? Stug4 getting a 1200m buff was a great idea and giving them that while taking away the sk18 was a great move. Division isn't just a weak 352nd anymore.

You seem to think that because I don't support 1200m P4 buff, but I support a price decrease, I therefore don't support any German buffs. I just don't support ones from clear wehraboos that want a 1200m buff because "history" but ignore ALL THE REST OF IT. At least I agreed with Thonar a while back that the data he presented, all twenty forum pages of it, supported that the P4 Cannon is similar to the 76mm more than the 75mm. He seemed to be more frustrated that balancing is subjective to Paradox based on what they want to do and there's no "template" to balance.

The stug is a great example of two tanks with identical guns but one got 1200m range because balance. If you don't like it, go mod the game and recreate history. Otherwise it's a poor balance decision.

No I want your win ratio so I can know what your credentials are

I also asked for what percentage of games you play as allies/axis

Also nice ad hominem.

 

[Think Tanker]

In my opinion, the 17th SS is essentially the same as it was in the Beta with some (minor) changes. What is different now is that newer decks have a far greater proliferation of veteran units, and in my opinion the massive accuracy and morale bonuses which they grant is too far, in my experience. Ideally if we could have +0.5 ACC being given per star, instead of +1.0 it most likely would not be as large and prevalent a problem, and would help curb the fantastic proliferation of 1,200m range, 2-star veteran units.

 

[Dianno5741]

Ad hominem is not talking about the points but asking for credentials under your poor excuse because you don't have an argument, considering If you looked around you'd see I post for both allied or Axis nerfs/buffs when reasonable.

Unless you or I have won tournaments or play with Vulcan on a regular basis then you can't base credentials off stats. You could play custom 3s-4s with team mates and just wipe the floor with randoms.

TL;DnR go troll elsewhere. As for the 17th SS they needed the 1200m stugIV. Again now the deck plays like a mech deck and not a gimped 352 with phase A rocket artillery. Now only one allied deck gets 4k arty and one axis. Imagine if they didn't have the stug4, 4AD would ruin the Sk18 they had with their 4K mobile arty and then outrange you all day with hellcats. Really want to go back to that?

 

[Ddraig5400]

Ad hominem is not talking about the points but asking for credentials under your poor excuse because you don't have an argument, considering If you looked around you'd see I post for both allied or Axis nerfs/buffs when reasonable.

Unless you or I have won tournaments or play with Vulcan on a regular basis then you can't base credentials off stats. You could play custom 3s-4s with team mates and just wipe the floor with randoms.

TL;DnR go troll elsewhere. As for the 17th SS they needed the 1200m stugIV. Again now the deck plays like a mech deck and not a gimped 352 with phase A rocket artillery. Now only one allied deck gets 4k arty and one axis. Imagine if they didn't have the stug4, 4AD would ruin the Sk18 they had with their 4K mobile arty and then outrange you all day with hellcats. Really want to go back to that?

What do you mean they needed 1200m? The 17th SS are for fighting in the bocage, where their Pz. Grens and Stosstrupp outclass most allied infantry, all the while supported by veteran stugs and lots of rocket artillery. The Stug IV didn't need the range buff because it shouldn't be fighting at long range, it should be fighting in the bocage, where line of sight is short, only 600-800m, where stars are more valuable than range.
Personally I found the change bizarre, and contradictory to the divisions play style, but then a bunch of people play in the open against armoured divisions having better tanks, what'd you expect?
And what about the Stug III, doesn't that get a buff? I wonder why....

I'll admit right now the 17th SS feels like a shitter 352nd, but so does the 716th. I think the problem lies more with the fact the 352nd has everything.

 

[Gilmund]

What needs the 17thSS is some long range artillery back. The Stug range itself doesn't change many things, it is not like this deck as other infantry decks is build around armor anyway and these stugs could not really compete with allied armor decks.
Nebelwerfers are fine, they're cheap and very useful... if you may keep them alive from planes and counter battery. Good luck with that.
Same with your AT's.
I still have not understood why the long range arty from 17thSS had to be removed when there is a shitload of them in 352nd. It made the deck barely able to compete. Against sextons or M7's in early B you're screwed.
Why take the 17thSS then, you'll always have more luck with 91st Luftlande or the fallschirmjagers...

 

[IronHat]

In my opinion, the 17th SS is essentially the same as it was in the Beta with some (minor) changes. What is different now is that newer decks have a far greater proliferation of veteran units, and in my opinion the massive accuracy and morale bonuses which they grant is too far, in my experience. Ideally if we could have +0.5 ACC being given per star, instead of +1.0 it most likely would not be as large and prevalent a problem, and would help curb the fantastic proliferation of 1,200m range, 2-star veteran units.

What do you mean they needed 1200m? The 17th SS are for fighting in the bocage, where their Pz. Grens and Stosstrupp outclass most allied infantry, all the while supported by veteran stugs and lots of rocket artillery. The Stug IV didn't need the range buff because it shouldn't be fighting at long range, it should be fighting in the bocage, where line of sight is short, only 600-800m, where stars are more valuable than range.
Personally I found the change bizarre, and contradictory to the divisions play style, but then a bunch of people play in the open against armoured divisions having better tanks, what'd you expect?
And what about the Stug III, doesn't that get a buff? I wonder why....

I'll admit right now the 17th SS feels like a shitter 352nd, but so does the 716th. I think the problem lies more with the fact the 352nd has everything.

True city fighter have access to engineers in phase A. The SS ostveteran can't really throw its weight like an engineer in urban combat.

in terms of open field combat, true armor division have access to either the Firefly or 76mm sherman that can pick apart 1000m units. Even with the recent buff, the guards FF is still better in a straight fight, French have vetted 76mm, and the 3AD have jumbo. Even the scotts and the canadian have challenger and Firefly.

The 352nd have access to better equipment, but their mainline isn't as good as the 17SSth. If you don't want to wait until the phase C for the jagdpanther, the stug4 is still a solid tank. the panzergrenadier is also an easier unit to use than ostruppen + ldr combo.

Buffing the stug 4 mean only affecting the one division that used it. By comparison the stug 3 and panzer 4 unit/weapons file are shared between multiple division. Even the buff to the stug4 was mechanically done by swapping out the old 75mm stug gun with the one used by the jpz4.

as much as I hated the different unit pricing, it means eugen can buff one division without fear of affecting someone else.

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

Ad hominem is not talking about the points but asking for credentials under your poor excuse because you don't have an argument, considering If you looked around you'd see I post for both allied or Axis nerfs/buffs when reasonable.

Unless you or I have won tournaments or play with Vulcan on a regular basis then you can't base credentials off stats. You could play custom 3s-4s with team mates and just wipe the floor with randoms.

TL;DnR go troll elsewhere. As for the 17th SS they needed the 1200m stugIV. Again now the deck plays like a mech deck and not a gimped 352 with phase A rocket artillery. Now only one allied deck gets 4k arty and one axis. Imagine if they didn't have the stug4, 4AD would ruin the Sk18 they had with their 4K mobile arty and then outrange you all day with hellcats. Really want to go back to that?

Wheraboo is ad hominem
What percentage of games do you play as allies
Don't want to tell me your win rate, fine, I can understand, how about you 1v1 me? I only want to know what your skill level is

 

[Dianno5741]

If telling you my stats will get you to talk about the game then here they are.

I already pointed out I play with friends so it's skewed.

About 65-35 allied favored.
Mainly 2nd ID, 4th AD, 101st, 6th AB, Guards, and 3rd AD if I want a challenge.

Axis mains:
12th SS, 3rd Falls, 17th PzG, 116th, 9th AD, 352nd or Lehr on occasion.

Win rate 74%

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

If telling you my stats will get you to talk about the game then here they are.

I already pointed out I play with friends so it's skewed.

About 65-35 allied favored.
Mainly 2nd ID, 4th AD, 101st, 6th AB, Guards, and 3rd AD if I want a challenge.

Axis mains:
12th SS, 3rd Falls, 17th PzG, 116th, 9th AD, 352nd or Lehr on occasion.

Win rate 74%

Ok now I want to clear up misunderstanding. I play both sides almost 50/50. I don't dislike the balance in this game but the pzr 4 needs a buff. From my analysis the problem with balance is ssb, 4th, scots to name the worst offenders. The problem is axis just lacks too much. Examples are the medium phase A ban., Lack of phase A fighters, overall plane speed, example is p51 wasnt much faster than a fw190, but in game it goes 700, which is only possible in a dive. I don't mind allies having faster planes but a lot of the time they just go 100-200kph faster than what would be identical class of German planes.

If I had the ability to Change balance I would open up phase a pzr 4s for a few decks by lowering price to compete with Sherman's and give some to phase a, maybe Lehr but definitely 9th. For 352, I'll start with 2nd inf or scots, they have some great armour in phase a, really agressive builds, which is valid due to attacking nature in Normandy. 352 should get some gains in the opposite, build on its defensive nature. Some more ezharzttruppen should be available to them in phase a (and they really should be in more decks, they where very very common). Phase C could do with some more income to represent the counter attack. Perphaps take of 5 from phase be and give 10-15 in phase c top it off with some disheartened mg34's and pioneers and it will really help. Other than 352, and pzr 4, there shouldn't be much else done to axis, instead allies should get looked at. I don't play scots nor do I play against them often but my friends, who are really good 1v1 players have a strong dislike of them, so they need a balance pass.
4th armoured just gets a lot of toys, which isn't necessary a bad thing, but some of its strengths need to get toned down.
The amour of armor in phase à is ridiculous. ² hellcats, ¹ Sherman, ² 105 Sherman's, and a gunship that just doesn't get stunned and is far too hard to kill. Plus you get 50cal half-track infantry and cheap truck infantry. I think that it should keep it's phase a moment but other than wide spread nerfs to it, I think it should hurt in the late game.
Ssb problem seems to be that in a 1v1 it is garbage but as soon an you mix it with some other divisions it synergies far to much. I don't really know what to do to it. However it is probably the strongest favour in the game. Yqou lack an at gun but if a teammate covers you then your disadvantage is offset

 

[Dianno5741]

I agree on a lot of those points, 4th AD is strong and the hellcat could use a price nerf. I've never been a fan of the b.firefly in 12th SS and would rather see P4s in A. In fact I feel a lot of axis divisions getting that tank in A would be better with a price nerf. I'd rather see that than 1200m, or at least attempting that before an overhaul that would be required for a 1200m P4.

I like team games a lot but the more people you get the more abusive the game gets. Like in 4s or 10v10 the frontage per division is so narrow you can just spam planes or arty. So it's harder to balance IMO. I like the SSB but I'm not a fan of the play style so I couldn't say.

 

[Karlburg]

It's really weird to see myself agreeing with zoomsnipe but yeah for the most part he's spot on.

I'll just add that most of the problem with the scots is they get elite/vet AT guns(including 17 pounders), and the AVRE/churchill V, and vet infantry, and a good artillery tab starting in phase B. There's really zero weakness in the deck and a lot of powerful strengths that haven't really been nerfed. They pretty much, imo, make 3rd canadian pointless.

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

I agree on a lot of those points, 4th AD is strong and the hellcat could use a price nerf. I've never been a fan of the b.firefly in 12th SS and would rather see P4s in A. In fact I feel a lot of axis divisions getting that tank in A would be better with a price nerf. I'd rather see that than 1200m, or at least attempting that before an overhaul that would be required for a 1200m P4.

I like team games a lot but the more people you get the more abusive the game gets. Like in 4s or 10v10 the frontage per division is so narrow you can just spam planes or arty. So it's harder to balance IMO. I like the SSB but I'm not a fan of the play style so I couldn't say.

The 1200 argument is more so if it was going to stay at that prices, them its stats need to be buffed, and the best option would be the range, as it is the only historically viable option

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

It's really weird to see myself agreeing with zoomsnipe but yeah for the most part he's spot on.

I'll just add that most of the problem with the scots is they get elite/vet AT guns(including 17 pounders), and the AVRE/churchill V, and vet infantry, and a good artillery tab starting in phase B. There's really zero weakness in the deck and a lot of powerful strengths that haven't really been nerfed. They pretty much, imo, make 3rd canadian pointless.

3rd canada is better in team games because you can use your aa as a safe zone for bomber spam (actually kills because of the vet)

 

[IronHat]

and a good artillery tab starting in phase B.

british artillery are "workmanlike" at best. the 25 pounder does the job but it's not particularly powerful compared to the allies and axis' 105mm and 122mm. The russian 122m and the sk-18 are basically the two best towed artillery in the game. the 122mm is just a better 105mm.

And the priest is a solid unit but not a stand out. Both the US and axis generally get 2x priest/wespe at phase B. The scot have to be content with 1 priest in phase B. By.

the Scot's good armor in phase A offset their abysmal arty in the same phase. 2inch is a horrid unit. Any nerf to the Avre mean the scot will need better arty.

I will agree that the scot's abundance of vet atg is over the top and poisoned the well for other allied division.

The AVRE doesn't need 15 av itself. Functionally it's a 500m flamethrower. It would still be fine at the more historically accurate 10AV. Get it into a city and watch it demolish infantry.

the problem is lack of arty for the scot. A pak40 will kill the churchill V easily.

 

[Ddraig5400]

british artillery are "workmanlike" at best. the 25 pounder does the job but it's not particularly powerful compared to the allies and axis' 105mm and 122mm. The russian 122m and the sk-18 are basically the two best towed artillery in the game. the 122mm is just a better 105mm.

And the priest is a solid unit but not a stand out. Both the US and axis generally get 2x priest/wespe at phase B. The scot have to be content with 1 priest in phase B. By.

the Scot's good armor in phase A offset their abysmal arty in the same phase. 2inch is a horrid unit. Any nerf to the Avre mean the scot will need better arty.

I will agree that the scot's abundance of vet atg is over the top and poisoned the well for other allied division.

The AVRE doesn't need 15 av itself. Functionally it's a 500m flamethrower. It would still be fine at the more historically accurate 10AV. Get it into a city and watch it demolish infantry.

the problem is lack of arty for the scot. A pak40 will kill the churchill V easily.

^This. I find the Royal Artillery to be somewhat subpar in this game, It's not broken but could be improved upon. I'm still waiting for the 4.5in Field Gun.

 

[Karlburg]

^This. I find the Royal Artillery to be somewhat subpar in this game, It's not broken but could be improved upon. I'm still waiting for the 4.5in Field Gun.

While the 25 pounder is not the best, the scots get the tube howitzer with vet and do have the priest to get into the 105 game in a self-propelled version. They're not really as good as 2ID, or 3arm or 4arm for example, but it's not a huge weakness for them.

That's the thing about scots, though- there's no weakness in the deck. The infantry can't q-move to win but the vickers is inexpensive and will help you win firefights at range.

No doubt that axis artillery is better in most decks, though- incendiary rockets galore, long ranged, powerful howitzers, etc. But, with the allies you take what you can get.

 

[IronHat]

While the 25 pounder is not the best, the scots get the tube howitzer with vet and do have the priest to get into the 105 game in a self-propelled version. They're not really as good as 2ID, or 3arm or 4arm for example, but it's not a huge weakness for them.

That's the thing about scots, though- there's no weakness in the deck. The infantry can't q-move to win but the vickers is inexpensive and will help you win firefights at range.

No doubt that axis artillery is better in most decks, though- incendiary rockets galore, long ranged, powerful howitzers, etc. But, with the allies you take what you can get.

saying that scot's strength is in "have no weakness" is missing the fact they have the best allied anti-tank deck in the entire game. 17 pounder ambush is basically the best way to take down the axis cat and scot have the most vetted 17 pdr. Even in Phase A, the vetted 6 pdr make them resilient to vehicle rush.

 

[Karlburg]

saying that scot's strength is in "have no weakness" is missing the fact they have the best allied anti-tank deck in the entire game. 17 pounder ambush is basically the best way to take down the axis cat and scot have the most vetted 17 pdr. Even in Phase A, the vetted 6 pdr make them resilient to vehicle rush.

Yeah, that's true, those double vet 6 and 17 pdrs are absolutely brutal. No doubt about that- those and the avre/churchV are pretty much all you need to support your rifle spam.

The great thing is you can use your cmd carriers to tow them after they shoot, and while they're on the tow they are way more resistant to arty fire.

 

[DarkCruor]

I hope Eugen continues this tradition of making the 17th SS an awkward mismash of abilities to hammer the cruel historical realities of how "elite" and "well-equipped" SS units really were; especially by 1944 .

Ehh, I think that's a problem with both Mechanized divisions in this game. The 3rd Canadian is a huge mismash of resources and low veterancy and just being very weak (al beit they have a strong combo with the Storm Troopers and flamethrower units). Though, I personally find while the 17. is p strung together I do think its rather strong because of the parts strung together (I really wish they had Flammpz 251s though that would would be awesome for them)