Stuck, and facing supply issues - Ideas?

[TheMoe]

Before I attacked Poland, I tried to get Yugoslavia through the focus tree, but GB and France denied my request. That lead to me being at war with Yugo, but I had never faced this issue before and I thought I would just go and take out Poland, then double back and grab Yugo.

In the meantime, Italy attacked Yugo and France and GB attacked Italy. I'm still quite new to the game, so I thought I would finish with Poland very quickly using all my armies, then I'd rush over there and help Italy. France advanced very quickly South, down Italy's boot, and by the time my troops arrived, I had a two front war, against the Yugo army to the SE and France moving down the boot to the SW. I still didn't think much of it, because I figured my armies were quite strong, and I could easily take on part of France's army while part of my forces attacked Yugo's forces.

What I didn't count on is the supply issue. I originally had two x 24 division, 40 width infantry armies with level 2 logistics companies in each, and I have the leader purchased with political points that gives +8 logistics. One was facing French moving down the boot, and the other facing the Yugo army. I thought about bringing my tanks in, but they would just worsen the attrition. I have air superiority over the area, and I'm pretty much out of options. My troops are not moving, and I keep seeing lots of red flags, instead of green ones. (two screenshots)

I can't get tricky and naval invade behind them, because my fleet is junk against both the French and English fleets, so I have to do something from the north, moving to the south. Am I right that bringing my 40 width tanks that also have tier 2 logistics to the fight will only worsen the supply situation?

I'm trying to build up the infrastructure in Germany that is between my capital and the area where I'm fighting, in the hope of improving my supply situation, but I'm not too hopeful (screenshot).

Is there anything I can do, when supply is the issue? My armies are just grinding through their equipment and going nowhere.

Should I just count this as a lesson learned, and load from a save before I attacked Poland, and divert 1/2 of my armies to the north of Yugo, now that I know how things will end up? Thanks!

Edit: I remembered I had a German general who provides a 25% reduction in supply requirements, so I switched my current general for him against the SW French troops, and I was surprised to see my units were still having supply issues. It might have simply been that any unit fighting in the mountains has difficulty getting supply. The outcome was no different, though. My troops were still locked in place, unable to make any advancements.

 

[pheonicia]

Building the infrastructure might be pointless if that's not the limiting factor, check the supply map mode to see what it says and address the specific issue.

It also doesnt look like you've called hungary into your war, which would be a great place to have your tanks swoop in from to seize Yugoslavia's victory points.

Finally, I would retreat from the two noodles that you've created in Italian territory and focus instead on creating a defensive line in the alps, because otherwise all those troops are already encircled. This could also free up enough troops to go around Maginot and capitulate france, solving the entire problem altogether.

Overall, this is salvageable, but there have definitely been mistakes that brought you down this path. You should have way more than 48 infantry divisions as Germany come 1939. Focus on quantity over quality, with basic 20 or so width infantry divisions that can hold the line and coast, because there's a lot of territory and coast you need to defend. Also forget about taking on the USSR with that paltry division count. You could easily need 150+ divisions to fill up the front, and that's before counting anything you'll need to advance, like tanks. And never trust italy to manage anything on it's own, that will always end in disappointment.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Can you show your supply map mode?

 

[squid_hills]

Ew, you're fighting in the Alps. That's a rough fight, even with mountaineers spearheading every attack. Pull back to the Austrian/Italian border and dig in. The French shouldn't be abe to break you if you have air superiority, an they'll bleed themselves out trying. If Hungary is an ally, get some units into their territory and call them into the war. You can eat Belgrade in days if the Yugoslavians aren't prepared for an invasion from the north.

You say you are at war with France, but make no mention of the UK. Did they not join the war? If they didn't, you might be in better shape than you think. It is way easier to capitulate France if the UK isn't supporting them.

To punk France out, see if you can get naval superiority in the two sea zones between Germany and France. If it looks like you can take it (hopefully a chunk of the French navy is fighting the Italians in the Med) set up a naval invasion with some solid infantry units, as well as some fast movers (cavalry, light tanks, motorized). There are two ports right next to each other on the French coast a few hexes north west of Paris. Target the leftmost port out of the two (AI France usually guards the rightmost port, but not the left as often). Naval invade when you can and grab the other port, and as many hexes of France in the surrounding areas as you can. Have your fast movers head for Paris and Calais (the French capital usually moves to Calais after Paris falls) and as many VPs as you can. If France hasn't gotten rid of their "Disjointed Government" malus, you can capitulate the whole country just by occupying the northeastern 1/4 of the country. That will pretty much clear up most of your problems.

For division composition, if you are playing single player against the AI, 20 width anything is good enough. The AI doesn't know the latest spreadsheet meta and it often has poorly thought out division templates. It doesn't usually optimize, so 20 width Infantry/Cavalry/Motorized is more than sufficient to secure a victory. 20 width also makes it easier to spam units. 40 width tanks are still useful for breaking through enemy lines, but 20 width tanks are still viable against the AI.

 

[DukofDeth]

That advisor you mentioned - I think the +8 you get is to attrition, not to supply use. He's called a logistical expert, but what he affects is attrition, not supply use.

Also, why are you fighting France in Italy when you could be sweeping through Belgium and Holland to capitulate France quite quickly?

 

[TheMoe]

Building the infrastructure might be pointless if that's not the limiting factor, check the supply map mode to see what it says and address the specific issue.

It also doesnt look like you've called hungary into your war, which would be a great place to have your tanks swoop in from to seize Yugoslavia's victory points.

Finally, I would retreat from the two noodles that you've created in Italian territory and focus instead on creating a defensive line in the alps, because otherwise all those troops are already encircled. This could also free up enough troops to go around Maginot and capitulate france, solving the entire problem altogether.

Overall, this is salvageable, but there have definitely been mistakes that brought you down this path. You should have way more than 48 infantry divisions as Germany come 1939. Focus on quantity over quality, with basic 20 or so width infantry divisions that can hold the line and coast, because there's a lot of territory and coast you need to defend. Also forget about taking on the USSR with that paltry division count. You could easily need 150+ divisions to fill up the front, and that's before counting anything you'll need to advance, like tanks. And never trust italy to manage anything on it's own, that will always end in disappointment.

Haha! You're a much better general than I am for sure! Thanks for the info on the supply map. I completely forgot about it. I tried what I could to contain the bubble in the south, but I wasn't much help to my poor troops at this point in my military career. I went back to before I attacked Poland and I managed to take out Yugoslavia in the SE, and push France to the large river just west of the mountains. Now I'm after Denmark, on my way to attack through the Netherlands.

Boy, you sure couldn't have been more right about not depending on Italy. Their troops are so weak! Come to think of it, Italy is the entire reason I'm in this mess! Yes, I'll work on Hungary. Right now they don't like me so much, because I took all of Czechoslovakia after my focus. Thanks again!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Building the infrastructure might be pointless if that's not the limiting factor, check the supply map mode to see what it says and address the specific issue.

There are some edge cases, literally and figuratively.

Deep spearheads quickly become impossible for most divisions due to supply. Even with 10 infrastructure you get values < 10 supply. IMO to some degree "control of adjacent" is too punitive, but I'm not sure where a good place for that would be.

Then you have the actual bugs with supply. Sometimes, provinces are mis-assigned wrt supply region, so you take a single province that's still along your front line and in that one province you get exactly 0 supply. Sometimes, the game has a hard-on for changing supply tracing from "well in green" to "yellow" routes and back without any viable reason (no transport raids, no damage to infra, nothing). Finally, sometimes the game gives supply to encircled divisions for no reason due to a bug (since 1.0), which is resolved by reloading but is extremely annoying in any format where reloading is annoying (such as MP, co-op or otherwise).

Supply is also a reason to avoid joining factions, because the AI still likes to teamkill.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

It will be overworked with other things in one of the comming Patches 1.10 "Collie" and / or 1.11 "Barbarossa" incl. DLC´s. Maybe it will be seperated in 2 Parts, but that we will see when the DD´s and Vids are comming. The Player get more influence, that´s all we know from the last Dev-Posts and DD´s.

More can´t be said atm.

 

[TheMoe]

Can you show your supply map mode?

Hello SchwarzKatze. My apologies. Something must have happened with the forum or my browser, because I'm just seeing your comment today.

I thought I had saved the game at the point where I showed the screenshots in my OP, but I couldn't locate it when I went back to check today. I do have a screenshot for you that shows the supply just after I capitulated Poland and before I got myself into the big supply mess. When I look at it now, the supply maps looks quite green to me. I'm still quite new to the game, and I'm guessing that no matter the supply in the surrounding areas, mountains warfare is always going to have supply challenges, just like one would expect IRL.

Supply is a bit of an enigma for me, and I'm reading in other posts that Paradox is working to make this aspect of the game a little easier to understand. Thanks.

 

[TheMoe]

Ew, you're fighting in the Alps. That's a rough fight, even with mountaineers spearheading every attack. Pull back to the Austrian/Italian border and dig in. The French shouldn't be abe to break you if you have air superiority, an they'll bleed themselves out trying. If Hungary is an ally, get some units into their territory and call them into the war. You can eat Belgrade in days if the Yugoslavians aren't prepared for an invasion from the north.

You say you are at war with France, but make no mention of the UK. Did they not join the war? If they didn't, you might be in better shape than you think. It is way easier to capitulate France if the UK isn't supporting them.

To punk France out, see if you can get naval superiority in the two sea zones between Germany and France. If it looks like you can take it (hopefully a chunk of the French navy is fighting the Italians in the Med) set up a naval invasion with some solid infantry units, as well as some fast movers (cavalry, light tanks, motorized). There are two ports right next to each other on the French coast a few hexes north west of Paris. Target the leftmost port out of the two (AI France usually guards the rightmost port, but not the left as often). Naval invade when you can and grab the other port, and as many hexes of France in the surrounding areas as you can. Have your fast movers head for Paris and Calais (the French capital usually moves to Calais after Paris falls) and as many VPs as you can. If France hasn't gotten rid of their "Disjointed Government" malus, you can capitulate the whole country just by occupying the northeastern 1/4 of the country. That will pretty much clear up most of your problems.

For division composition, if you are playing single player against the AI, 20 width anything is good enough. The AI doesn't know the latest spreadsheet meta and it often has poorly thought out division templates. It doesn't usually optimize, so 20 width Infantry/Cavalry/Motorized is more than sufficient to secure a victory. 20 width also makes it easier to spam units. 40 width tanks are still useful for breaking through enemy lines, but 20 width tanks are still viable against the AI.

Thank you for the incredible strategy suggestions. I'm constantly amazed at the clever suggestions I receive on the forum, and it helps me understand that strategy is not one of my strong points. I do love the macro and learning about a complicated game, though.

GB had certainly joined the war, and their troops were bolstering the French and the Yugo forces, which was a another difficult factor. I can see how crafty your ideas are, and I completely agree in hindsight that fighting in the mountains with artillery-heavy divisions is not ideal. Falling back is a great idea. Air superiority on the other hand is something else I was lacking in a bit. The AI just doesn't have any issues combining all of GB and France's air force in one province, along with air forces of other allies. Gathered together, the number are quite intimidating. I'm learning how the AI thinks and I'll be ready for their tricks in the next game.

Yes, I just learned about the Disjointed Goverment, and how crucial it is to take France early. I was a bit late starting in this game, which is another no-no. Thanks again!

 

[TheMoe]

That advisor you mentioned - I think the +8 you get is to attrition, not to supply use. He's called a logistical expert, but what he affects is attrition, not supply use.

Also, why are you fighting France in Italy when you could be sweeping through Belgium and Holland to capitulate France quite quickly?

Yes, you're absolutely right! At this point in my HOI 4 education, it's easy to confuse logistics with attrition, though your point has set me straight. Thank you.

Haha! My plan was to follow a historical timeline. I'm still learning what all the symbols mean, how to check for who is at war with whom, and I completely missed that Italy had attacked Yugo, and as Italy always does, they started losing. That allowed the Yugo troops to balloon into my territory, which I wasn't even watching, having attacked Poland. When I finished, I noticed the southern part of Germany had a strange shape and I couldn't quite grasp what was going on, until I looked closely and investigated. It's the first time I've ever encountered this situation.

I recalled reading a pop-up message that Italy had made some claim on Yugo or something along those lines, but I didn't understand the ramifications of their actions. I believe I had allied with Italy, which allowed the failed Italian invasion to balloon into my territory or something along those lines. Either way, it was a surprising development for me.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Hello SchwarzKatze. My apologies. Something must have happened with the forum or my browser, because I'm just seeing your comment today.

I thought I had saved the game at the point where I showed the screenshots in my OP, but I couldn't locate it when I went back to check today. I do have a screenshot for you that shows the supply just after I capitulated Poland and before I got myself into the big supply mess. When I look at it now, the supply maps looks quite green to me. I'm still quite new to the game, and I'm guessing that no matter the supply in the surrounding areas, mountains warfare is always going to have supply challenges, just like one would expect IRL.

Supply is a bit of an enigma for me, and I'm reading in other posts that Paradox is working to make this aspect of the game a little easier to understand. Thanks.

Sometimes you need to make the game play for a day before supplies are recauculated

 

[TheMoe]

Sometimes you need to make the game play for a day before supplies are recauculated

Good to know. I'm anxious to see the new changes coming in future patches. Thanks!

 

[TheMoe]

There are some edge cases, literally and figuratively.

Deep spearheads quickly become impossible for most divisions due to supply. Even with 10 infrastructure you get values < 10 supply. IMO to some degree "control of adjacent" is too punitive, but I'm not sure where a good place for that would be.

Then you have the actual bugs with supply. Sometimes, provinces are mis-assigned wrt supply region, so you take a single province that's still along your front line and in that one province you get exactly 0 supply. Sometimes, the game has a hard-on for changing supply tracing from "well in green" to "yellow" routes and back without any viable reason (no transport raids, no damage to infra, nothing). Finally, sometimes the game gives supply to encircled divisions for no reason due to a bug (since 1.0), which is resolved by reloading but is extremely annoying in any format where reloading is annoying (such as MP, co-op or otherwise).

Supply is also a reason to avoid joining factions, because the AI still likes to teamkill.

Thank you for the info. I was a bit perplexed by your last statement. Are you saying AI allies may crowd into areas where your troops are already low on supplies, and then exacerbate the supply attrition?

 

[TheMoe]

It will be overworked with other things in one of the comming Patches 1.10 "Collie" and / or 1.11 "Barbarossa" incl. DLC´s. Maybe it will be seperated in 2 Parts, but that we will see when the DD´s and Vids are comming. The Player get more influence, that´s all we know from the last Dev-Posts and DD´s.

More can´t be said atm.

Thank you. I'm excited to look for some additional improvements in the game.

 

[pheonicia]

Thank you for the info. I was a bit perplexed by your last statement. Are you saying AI allies may crowd into areas where your troops are already low on supplies, and then exacerbate the supply attrition?

Yes, tmit is. It won't happen alot, but it will happen enough to be frustrating.

 

[CraniumMuppet]

eh, stupid question but...you have air superiority, how much cas is deployed? when I get stuck I can usually break through with enough cas, even when the AI starts piling up

 

[TheMoe]

Yes, tmit is. It won't happen alot, but it will happen enough to be frustrating.

Haha! I thought that's what you were suggesting. I'm already seeing that Italian troops are becoming intermingled with any attack I make, and they're also wandering all through German territory. Quite funny to watch! Thanks.

 

[TheMoe]

eh, stupid question but...you have air superiority, how much cas is deployed? when I get stuck I can usually break through with enough cas, even when the AI starts piling up

That's a really fascinating thought. I honestly haven't done much work with CAS, and I don't know how much it adds. There are a bunch of "How To Germany" videos out there and one of the common themes I run across is that you either need great tanks or a ton of CAS if you want to be successful.

I was playing last night and I discovered the little pop up from the battle flags, and on it in the top left and right I can see how effective my CAS has been in terms of reducing organization and strength of enemy divisions. I assume strength literally means tanks and troops killed. The info looks helpful, and I'm sure I'll get a sense of what all that really means in the big picture as I play more.

I can say that I dislike the very limited ranges of the standard air to air and CAS planes, and that I enjoy the reduction in micromanagement from the tactical bombers and fighters. I'm aware I can reduce the micro by assigning an air group to a general, but it's quite hard for me to see the big picture when I do that. Managing air superiority is crucial in the current build, and I don't feel comfortable letting go just yet. Thanks!

Edit: BTW, I went back to before I invaded Poland, split my forces, and I have been quite successful going up and around the Netherlands. Here's a screenshot of my current game. Italy sure created headaches for me by attacking both France and Yugo (filled with French and Brittish troops) at the same time. By now, I have a bunch of garrison armies, and I'm helping Italy take on Greece while I wait to invade England.

 

[CraniumMuppet]

That's a really fascinating thought. I honestly haven't done much work with CAS, and I don't know how much it adds. There are a bunch of "How To Germany" videos out there and one of the common themes I run across is that you either need great tanks or a ton of CAS if you want to be successful.

I was playing last night and I discovered the little pop up from the battle flags, and on it in the top left and right I can see how effective my CAS has been in terms of reducing organization and strength of enemy divisions. I assume strength literally means tanks and troops killed. The info looks helpful, and I'm sure I'll get a sense of what all that really means in the big picture as I play more.

I can say that I dislike the very limited ranges of the standard air to air and CAS planes, and that I enjoy the reduction in micromanagement from the tactical bombers and fighters. I'm aware I can reduce the micro by assigning an air group to a general, but it's quite hard for me to see the big picture when I do that. Managing air superiority is crucial in the current build, and I don't feel comfortable letting go just yet. Thanks!

Edit: BTW, I went back to before I invaded Poland, split my forces, and I have been quite successful going up and around the Netherlands. Here's a screenshot of my current game. Italy sure created headaches for me by attacking both France and Yugo (filled with French and Brittish troops) at the same time. By now, I have a bunch of garrison armies, and I'm helping Italy take on Greece while I wait to invade England.

CAS demolishes infantry if they do not have AA in their division (or a certain leader trait).
I do not personally like TAC's because they do sub-par damage both ways compared to CAS or Strats, so I usually put my mils on CAS. The have the advantage of not taking supply in the same way as deploying say, a bunch of tanks on the frontline.

You might also want to try SPA

I just did a quick example with 750 CAS2 vs the starting French army at the maginot line and each day its hovering around like...45-65 damage done. You can get more damage with more CAS, or more upgrades, air coverage etc.

Also the more air superiority you have the more penalty to defense they have,

Lastly, I know its unorthodox, but grand battleplan is sometimes good for breaking entrenched enemies since you get so much planning bonuses that you might get a high enough attack to push them out of entrenchment, but then you sacrifice SF or MW, so...yeah. Might be worth a shot