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leemonk

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Hi,

Playing as UK here.

I am having a real problem with German submarines. They have wiped out my entire convoy fleet and I seem incapable of taking them out unless I do so when they are in port (which as a side note I did with Italy).

I'm in 1940 and have actually really focused Naval techs, thus tech shouldn't be a problem. I've also got some great radar going on and am at level 6 in Plymouth and Dover which lights up the whole area.

Seeing the subs isnt an issue as I can see them just wondering around the Southern half of the UK but nothing can hit them. I send all sorts of fleets there; carriers, BB's, DD's etc but nothing engages.

My Small Ship ASW is at level 2 but I am training that now.

Am I missing something? This is a massive problem for me as I currently have no convoys and I am making tons of them.....

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Regards

Lee
 

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I usually get a decent number of engagements with the patrol mission. From my understanding though, CV/CVLs, and DDs, are the best sub hunters, along with NAV bombers. Aircraft and Radar should be able to really ramp up detection and engagement chances with submarines. I'm sure there are others with more experience handling this, but I usually see a dramatic drop in convoy losses when I start tasking these assets to patrol the areas where the convoys are being sunk. Naval mapmode is pretty awesome for this purpose.
 

unmerged(148770)

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Lee

It is difficult to sink submarines with the early techs. You are doing the right thing by bombing ports (especially Brest) and this will deal with them eventually - even if it does feel a bit gamey. As you have identified, the easiest way to beat the subs it to outproduce them. In other words build more convoys than they can sink. That way they are a nuisance but not a game changer. I usually send small fleets as Anti Submarine Warfare Flotillas, a CL with a few DD's (doesn't matter how old they are if they have up-to-date radar and ASW) with an Admiral with spotter trait. If the German fleet still has a surface threat I attach one of the old CA's to each flotilla for a bit of protection.

It is hugely frustrating to 'see' the subs on radar but not be able to engage them, but radar also helps you to see which port they are in. You have tactical bombers from the outset, so use them.
 

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Hi,

Playing as UK here.

I am having a real problem with German submarines. They have wiped out my entire convoy fleet and I seem incapable of taking them out unless I do so when they are in port (which as a side note I did with Italy).

I'm in 1940 and have actually really focused Naval techs, thus tech shouldn't be a problem. I've also got some great radar going on and am at level 6 in Plymouth and Dover which lights up the whole area.

Seeing the subs isnt an issue as I can see them just wondering around the Southern half of the UK but nothing can hit them. I send all sorts of fleets there; carriers, BB's, DD's etc but nothing engages.

My Small Ship ASW is at level 2 but I am training that now.

Am I missing something? This is a massive problem for me as I currently have no convoys and I am making tons of them.....

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Regards

Lee
Turn on the naval map mode to see where the convoys are being sunk>park (never, ever tell them to patrol) a bunch of up-to-date DDs in that sea zone (and some capitals too just in case Bismarck wants a fight)>wait>dead or severely damaged subs rinse and repeat until they stop being an issue (if you have enough DDs it won´t take long).
 

leemonk

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Turn on the naval map mode to see where the convoys are being sunk>park (never, ever tell them to patrol) a bunch of up-to-date DDs in that sea zone (and some capitals too just in case Bismarck wants a fight)>wait>dead or severely damaged subs rinse and repeat until they stop being an issue (if you have enough DDs it won´t take long).

Thanks for the advice everyone.

In relation to the quote above, the subs do tend to follow a standard route so I guess I should just park some DD's on the two routes (north and south of UK).

Thanks


This has literally been discussed at length and in depth at least a dozen times. I literally mean literally.
Search, and thou shalt be delivered. :)

I know and I read about 5 threads but they were very old. Last time I posted in an old thread it got locked and I got a warning. The warning was to start a new thread, which is what I have done now.....

I am more than happy to post in old threads but some people do not like that.

I took the lesser of two evils this time :confused:
 

BarrosRodrigues

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Thanks for the advice everyone.

In relation to the quote above, the subs do tend to follow a standard route so I guess I should just park some DD's on the two routes (north and south of UK).

Thanks
You are welcome but I think that is not as effective, the advice I gave you requires more micro but it will quickly kill their subs.
 

leemonk

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thanks all, after queuing and build some more CV's I believe I have all but destroyed the German and Italian subs when they were in port.

Clearly by far the most effective method. Though, I'm surprised any other method is so hit and miss.
 

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Clearly by far the most effective method. Though, I'm surprised any other method is so hit and miss.

As you have seen, there are two detection steps necessary to bring an enemy naval unit to battle. First you must detect it in the seazone, i.e. see it on the map. That is the easy part. Then your fleet in that seazone must pin it down; seazones are big places. That is particularly hard with very small groups of subs (1-3 subs), because their visibility is so low (hard to find) and because yours is so much higher (easy for them to see you and run away). So in answer to these two problems you need to choose units for your ASW tasks forces which have the highest possible sub detection rating while still trying to keep your own visibility as low as reasonably possible. Balance is best.

A good, effective ASW task force might look something like this: 2xCVL + 6xDD, or 1xCV + 4xDD, or even 8xDD (or thereabouts). And contrary to what another poster said, you DO want your ASW task forces on patrol orders. Subs are a bit like convoys in that they do make something of an effort to avoid being sunk. With convoys it takes the form of them changing their route when they suffer raiding losses. With subs it takes the form of them gradually moving their hunting grounds on a continual basis, making it more haphazard than a direct avoidance. But subs also run from a detected enemy fleet that fails to bring them to battle; they don't hang around and wait for that fleet to finally pin them down. They may return to that same seazone later and risk detection again, but by then will likely have passed through at least a half dozen other seazones, sinking convoys all the while.

To answer this part of it, you want your own ASW task forces also roaming, so that all the seazones in the hunting area get checked regularly; there are too many of them to park an ASW TF in each and every one, like laying down a blanket across an entire ocean. That said, it doesn't hurt to park an ASW TF in a seazone you know subs must regularly pass through on their way to and from port, as sort of a gatekeeper.

Other things you can do to increase your odds of interception:

1. Use all your spotter leaders for ASW TFs, even if they have other traits that make them look attractive as commanders for CTFs or SAGs.

2. Always keep your ASW tech as updated as possible.

2b: Don't forget that small and medium navigation radars (on the aircraft research page) also double as ASW techs, as they improve the detection ability of your CAGs and NAVs, respectively.

3. Concentrate your ASW patrols in one or two general regions for while, until the hunting dries up, then shift them to another nearby region for while. As you rack up sub interceptions in a particular region the AI enemy will eventually try shifting his raiding focus, so you don't want to keep patrolling an area he has largely vacated.

4. Keep up with your DD techs, especially engines, and keep turning out newer models with more advanced engines as you learn better techs. The faster the average speed of your ASW TFs, the harder it is for subs to evade them before they can close in and sink 'em. It is very frustrating to pin down a sub wolfpack and then fail to even fire upon it before it manages to escape the battle.

5. Build lots and lots of convoys before the war even starts, so that you have literally hundreds and hundreds in reserve as replacements for the losses you will inevitably suffer during the first year or so of the war when you still won't have very good ASW tech online.

6. Build lots and lots of escorts for those convoys, and assign them on a 1-for-1 basis (or more!) to the larger convoys, and at a lower ratio on the others. This will make those large ones unraidable by small sub groups, which will get the "convoy too well protected to attacK" deal when they stumble across those big convoys. Also, escorts damage subs when the subs raid the convoy they are assigned to, even though no battle message pops up. So they inflict a small but steady form of attrition on the enemy sub forces as time goes on. By the way, this tip is really only specifically recommended for the UK, though Japan can get some mileage out of it, too.

7. Keep some NAVs patrolling for subs out as far as they reach into the North Atlantic at all times. They have possibly the best chance to find subs, and when they do it serves as an automatic detection for any friendly fleets present for purposes of bringing the subs to battle. When a NAV finds a sub in a seazone where you already have an ASW TF, it is more or less an automatic sub kill. Again this is particularly useful if you have parked an ASW TF along a route the subs must transit to and from port; a NAV on a steady hunting patrol in that same seazone will multiply the number of kills you get there.

8. Be patient! The Battle of the Atlantic took roughly two years before the Allies got more or less on top of it. You can do better than that, but it still will be a long fight no matter what.

Edit: sorry for the wall of text. :eek:
 
Last edited:

Bluestreak2k5

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Your having issues because this is historically what happened. During WWII ASW warfare was not very good at all until 1943, and the only reasons the allies had success in 1942 was because of enigma decoding.

As a human player playing Germany I always output about 100 subs in TFH in 1938 and have them ready to blockade Britain. In the BICE mod I just did it again with 200 subs in 1938 (people seem to think its impossible in the mod but its not). The AI patrol fleets don't even matter to me, as usually I will lose maybe 1 sub every month, but in the meantime they are losing 1 DD or 1 CL every combat engagement. Every loss to the UK hurts 10 times worse as I have the IC to build more subs, but they have to focus all on convoys and thus cannot build more anti-sub hunting ships. By late 1940 the UK is no longer a threat, Italy takes over Africa, and Japan invades Malaysia and India.

The only advice I can give is in the early wars you should focus much of your production on destroyers and stockpile convoys and escorts, once your convoys run out things fall apart across the world very quickly as you can't supply your units.
 

Kovax

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Remember that a sub group costs about as much as 20 convoys, so they've got to sink quite a few ships to pay for themselves. You can build a couple hundred convoys for what that sub fleet cost the Germans.

Operate DDs in large groups, to increase your odds of detection and interception. The Germans are trying to avoid contact, you're trying to cause it, so sneaking around in 2s and 3s doesn't cut it. As Guderian put it, in reference to using tanks, "don't sprinkle, POUR" .
 

Pacius Ferox

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Good reading, thank you all on my behalf too. I am playing the UK now and it's soon going to be 1939 in my game. I've almost forgotten the subs already...

Churchill is told to have said the only thing he really was afraid of during the war were the German submarines.
 

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Your having issues because this is historically what happened. During WWII ASW warfare was not very good at all until 1943, and the only reasons the allies had success in 1942 was because of enigma decoding.

That's not the only reason. Let's not forget lack of numbers and the bad torpedoes being used.

ULTRA was really important, but there were other things at play in the Battle of Atlantic. Some of them were in play before the war even started (I'm looking at you, capital ships that could have been another horde of submarines instead).

EDIT: My post seemed to lose something. Let me continue.

I like Pro_Consul's advice, although I disagree partially with his assessment of escorts.

He is right that escorts can generate the "too well protected" message and prevent attacks. But Britain and Japan have tons of tiny routes. Even at a 1:1 ratio of escorts to convoys, these tiny routes are fodder for enemy subs, with the added problem that high end subs will kill escorts a decent percentage of the time.

For huge convoy routes with lots of convoys, going 1:1 for escorts can be fairly effective. But on the nickel and dime routes, you end up losing escorts and having to replace them. But escorts are more expensive than convoys, so replacing them gets expensive. In order to immunize all convoy routes, you'd have to manually put 10 escorts on literally every single route. That's horrendously expensive, and I'm not sure it would work. (Escort mechanics are not fully understood even by me.)

I consider it more cost effective to build extra DDs and/or CVLs/NAVs to help cover the ocean than building lots of escorts. Putting massive escorts on large, key routes is a good idea, but I prefer killing submarines to attrition damage these days.
 
Last edited:

Pro_Consul

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I consider it more cost effective to build extra DDs and/or CVLs/NAVs to help cover the ocean than building lots of escorts. Putting massive escorts on large, key routes is a good idea, but I prefer killing submarines to attrition damage these days.

I cannot disagree with these statements. It is more cost effective to focus on extra ASW fleets instead of focusing on escorts, and killing subs is more effective than wearing them down via attrition. I never meant to imply that the use of escorts should be allowed to detract from one's committment to building strong ASW task forces. Rather, I meant to merely suggest that it can be an additional measure that can be taken, if one has the IC to spare. I consider it rather as paying a small extra tithe in IC in order to bring about victory in the Atlantic a bit more quickly and lower the impact of enemy convoy raiding. Let's not forget that the presence of escorts does not just attrite the raiding subs; it also reduces the transport losses that they would otherwise inflict. Though in fairness, the reduction in convoy losses is in now way worth the IC expense of building those escorts, at least not on its own. It is just a side benefit, not an effect worth chasing for itself.

Having ASW forces (both sea and air) to find and kill subs shouuld be the principle, and if appropriate to your means, sole method of removing that problem. But if one can afford the extra IC investment to build them, escorts can attrite those subs whenever they strike, thus adding another dimension to the efforts to remove that threat and additionally reducing the amount of time those subs will spend on mission by forcing them back to port more frequently. But for it to work, one should build up the escorts from the beginning of the game by means of a small IC committment to a very long serial run (there is no practical to cook for escorts), so as to be able to have a useful number of them ready when war breaks out without derailing other more important elements of your build scheme.
 

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Fair enough. I figured you might respond in this way. :)

Also, I have to mention that from the perspective of submarines, better torpedoes on subs mean that you need more escorts to reach the "too well protected to attack" threshold. And torpedoes upgrade on old subs, so subs that survive can become more of a threat to convoys over time, even if their range sucks.

I forgot to mention something: escorts inflict damage on ALL convoy raiders, just not submarines. I'm sure I've mentioned "The Little Escort That Could," who sank a DD in a SAG composed of 6 SHBBs and 12 DDs.

Always repair ships on convoy raiding before they get down to 5% strength.
 

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Also, I have to mention that from the perspective of submarines, better torpedoes on subs mean that you need more escorts to reach the "too well protected to attack" threshold. And torpedoes upgrade on old subs, so subs that survive can become more of a threat to convoys over time, even if their range sucks.

I am glad you raised this point, because it's also an important one no matter whether you are the raider or the one being raided. For the raider role it obviously means you should be keeping your torp tech (and others of course) as up to date as possible. For the role of the convoy owner, it emphasizes how important it is to fully prepare your ASW before hostilities begin so as to be ready and able to get on top of the enemy's sub forces as fast as possible. You don't want to start out behind and end up giving the enemy time to bring even more advanced techs online before you even make a serious dent in his starting forces.
 

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Thanks guys.

I've got a load more transports in production that area nearing completion soon, so things should get easier from here. My fleet is better able to spread a little as we have killed off most european opposition.

The only thing I was still have problems with is assigning escorts to convoys..... it won't stick.
 

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If you have AI control of convoys (creating, destroying, and maintaining) then the AI will remove any escorts you manually add to a route. The AI will only assign 1 escort to a route generally.

The upshot of this is that you really have to get into manual control of convoys to run tons of escorts.