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FOARP

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Well... there are a number of exceptions ;)
A number of the german and italian "torpedo boats" are big enough to be categorised as "destroyers" in HoI ingame terms.
Examples? Here:
German Elbing class boats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbing-class_torpedo_boat
Italian Curtatone class boats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtatone-class_destroyer

All in all the main question is: what is the standard parameter of an ww2 destroyer ;)
Out of my view the old HoI games had a number of problems with military formations and organisation.

E.g. there is no difference between italian or soviet binary divisions (max. 10.000 soldiers) or german triangularly (~15.000) divisions or the hugh japanese square division (with ~30.000 soldiers and own tank regiment).
Same for the airforce (problems between the size of an german "Geschwader" or italian "aerial division").
U can expand this list wit a lot of more problems and conflicts ;)
So. HoI is just an abstract game and basing on this fact i think there is a lot of space to add weapons and materials for minor states.

Err . . . . one of those "torpedo boats" is a destroyer.You see, the "destroyer" in "Curtatone-class destroyer" is a bit of a give-away. The other were termed "fleet torpedo-boats", and later were referred to as destroyers.

Sure there's always a grey area etc. etc., but let's not just ignore the basic fact that Denmark didn't have any destroyers, and the Danish torpedo boats were not close to being destroyers..
 

Lord Rommel

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Err . . . . one of those "torpedo boats" is a destroyer.You see, the "destroyer" in "Curtatone-class destroyer" is a bit of a give-away. The other were termed "fleet torpedo-boats", and later were referred to as destroyers.

Sure there's always a grey area etc. etc., but let's not just ignore the basic fact that Denmark didn't have any destroyers, and the Danish torpedo boats were not close to being destroyers..

Depending on your informations and sources.
Here is a quote form http://www.navypedia.org/ships/italy/it_dd_curtatone.htm:
In 1938 they were re-rated as torpedo boats.
But thats the point; what is a destroyer? What is a division? What is an airforce division?
All this questions must be define by HoI IV to simulate and add units onto the battlefield ;)
 

Admiral Fisker

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Errr . . . no, they are not. Which is why all the major navies in-game don't have dozens-hundreds of 'destroyer' units created by including their torpedo-boats as destroyers. Various mods tried to include them, but they all ran up against the same problem - torpedo boats are too small, too short-range, too easily produced, and too ineffective to be worth including.

Example: Germany manufactured about 230 S-boats, even at four boats a flotilla, that would be more than 57 'destroyer' flotillas.

Example 2: 531 PT-Boats served with the US Navy. That would be 132 'destroyer' flotillas.
Well, perhaps torpedo-boats could be added as their own unit in an expansion. They would be weak, but easily produced.
 

FOARP

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Well, perhaps torpedo-boats could be added as their own unit in an expansion. They would be weak, but easily produced.

Like I said, most mods including them ended up removing them - they're just too useless and spammy in capital-ship warfare.
 

Cybvep

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WC as a minor any country should be impossible
Fixed. Don't know why you are so focused on minor WC, considering that it's ridiculous no matter which country does it. Is Italian WC much better? Or British WC? I don't think so. You use this ridiculous minor WC argument all the time, but ignore the fact WHY it's possible to do a WC. It is possible because of the failures of the game mechanics and the AI, not because minors are too powerful or sth.
 

magitsu

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It was stupid to join the war for Sweden, and it`s leadership was smart enought to see it thrugh.
Allied offers of transit of troops to Finland were too obvious of a hoax, since Finalnd had it`s own ports. Germany was perfectly fine with Sweden`s existance as long as Sweden would traded ore, and why wouldn`t Sweden trade it? Germany had huge reserves of gold, coal, and other stuff that was ery valuable to Sweden so trade was mutually beneficial.
Not to mention the fact that they would've been only able to trade with Germany anyway since they were to be surrounded.
 

Soul Abattoir

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I played as Argentina in HOI3 at my brother's house when I was with him for the holidays. I took over South America and challenged the might of the USA. Was a very fun experience and had a blast! However, after the game I played Germany. I was blown away my how much my minor country sucked! Tec, Army, you name it. LOL
It would be nice to play a minor with more promising abilities I feel.

Also, watching development carefully. I'm mainly a EUIV type of guy but I'm thinking of picking this game up at day 1 once its out. Paradox has not let me down so far. ^_^
 

FOARP

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I played as Argentina in HOI3 at my brother's house when I was with him for the holidays. I took over South America and challenged the might of the USA. Was a very fun experience and had a blast! However, after the game I played Germany. I was blown away my how much my minor country sucked! Tec, Army, you name it. LOL
It would be nice to play a minor with more promising abilities I feel.

Also, watching development carefully. I'm mainly a EUIV type of guy but I'm thinking of picking this game up at day 1 once its out. Paradox has not let me down so far. ^_^

LOL - Let me get this straight, playing as a minor you managed to conquer an entire continent, and you think that minor was under-powered?

Fixed. Don't know why you are so focused on minor WC, considering that it's ridiculous no matter which country does it. Is Italian WC much better? Or British WC? I don't think so. You use this ridiculous minor WC argument all the time, but ignore the fact WHY it's possible to do a WC. It is possible because of the failures of the game mechanics and the AI, not because minors are too powerful or sth.

Cyb, this thread is about making minors more powerful. My point is that since it's possible to pull off WC with even a weak minor in HOI3, minors do not need to be made any more powerful.
 
Last edited:

Augustus93

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Fixed. Don't know why you are so focused on minor WC, considering that it's ridiculous no matter which country does it. Is Italian WC much better? Or British WC? I don't think so. You use this ridiculous minor WC argument all the time, but ignore the fact WHY it's possible to do a WC. It is possible because of the failures of the game mechanics and the AI, not because minors are too powerful or sth.
WC alone would be very unlikely but for example a faction WC would not be that unlikely.
 

Cybvep

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Cyb, this thread is about making minors more powerful. My point is that since it's possible to pull of WC with even a weak minor in HOI3, minors do not need to be made any more powerful.
This is absurd. Minor WC relies on exploits, using gamey strategies etc. Majors can do exactly the same things with even greater efficiency. This is not an argument for "normal" gameplay, really.
 

Pacius Ferox

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Totally, for some more realistic Minors!
If not stronger then at least some realistic ones :(

HoI3 had Finland with some sucky airforce that practically could never upgrade from Gloster Gladiators. Never heard of "Zimbo" Lorenz' being the author of modern fighter tactics, or even less about the legendary Brewsters of the 24th Squadron? Nah, let the machos win - keep the gladiators.
 

Pacius Ferox

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Finland was defeated as it was Finland who surrendered to Soviet and had to give in to Soviet demands. One could argue however that the Soviet victory over Finland was a Phyrric one as it had quite high price.

Soviet original demands was that Finnish workers will be "liberated from the yoke of the White Bandits". Since Soviets didn't attain that goal they changed it into "defense of Leningrad". They even formed up another army for Finland whose intent was to hold a victory parade in Helsinki - that part of the story was however carefully censored from any official Soviet history.

Stalin was also worried about the western aid reaching Finns and he gave up conquering the land. Or how would you explain this picture? Mannerheim reviewing British Contingent Osastu Sisu Lapua Mar 1940a.JPG
You would say, Soviets were defeated too.
 

Red_warning

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LOL - Let me get this straight, playing as a minor you managed to conquer an entire continent, and you think that minor was under-powered?



Cyb, this thread is about making minors more powerful. My point is that since it's possible to pull off WC with even a weak minor in HOI3, minors do not need to be made any more powerful.

South America is one of the easier continent to do this on since it's full of secondary powers and lacks any major power.
 

Cybvep

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South America is one of the easier continent to do this on since it's full of secondary powers and lacks any major power.
Doesn't matter - the USA should have smashed that country long before the whole continent was conquered. The Americans simply wouldn't tolerate a rising superpower at their doorstep. Not to mention the fact that no SW nation had the logistical capability to occupy the whole continent.
 

lobosrul

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About Torpedo Boats etc:

Having actually done part of the naval rework on Diday's ICE mod for hoi3, let me explain:

A Torpedo Boat (or Torpedo Boat Destroyer) is NOT I repeat NOT to be confused with a Motor Torpedo Boat. Torpedo boats of the very late 19th century and early 20th evolved into Destroyers. By the time Hoi3 starts some, but not all, navies still used the term Torpedo Boat or similar to denote an older, smaller destroyer with little or no ASW equipment. A German Elbing is a Torpedo Boat, actually its larger than some destroyers, 4x105mm's, but no depth charges or sonar. An E-boat or S-boat is a Motor Torpedo Boat. Only about 100 tons. Crew of about 2 dozen. Largest gun is a 37mm. For Diday's mod I tried to classify anything with less capability than the US Clemson class (lvl 1 DD's) as TB's. This was a way to help to accurately model all existing surface combatants into hoi3. There was really no point in ever building one. I think I took any ASW techs and halved their effect on TB's in relation to DD's. There was no really perfect way to do it though. The distinciton between DD's and TB's is certainly fuzzy.


See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_boat_destroyer#Early_history.2C_torpedo_boat_destroyers
 

FOARP

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Totally, for some more realistic Minors!
If not stronger then at least some realistic ones :(

HoI3 had Finland with some sucky airforce that practically could never upgrade from Gloster Gladiators. Never heard of "Zimbo" Lorenz' being the author of modern fighter tactics, or even less about the legendary Brewsters of the 24th Squadron? Nah, let the machos win - keep the gladiators.

This is more a case of Finland needing to be able to buy equipment from other countries.
 

FNK_Drake

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Doesn't matter - the USA should have smashed that country long before the whole continent was conquered. The Americans simply wouldn't tolerate a rising superpower at their doorstep. Not to mention the fact that no SW nation had the logistical capability to occupy the whole continent.

I doubt the American public would have wanted anything to do with a war in South America.. Only weeks before Pearl Harbour support for joining the war against Germany was around 8%.
 

Cybvep

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You cannot really compare the two :). The Americas were considered the US sphere of influence. It was their backyard, while Europe was a land far far away which most Americans didn't want to be bothered with. It wouldn't be hard to convince the Congress and the public to intervene in the South America, but intervening in Europe was a different matter entirely. Also, considering the power base of SA nations, there would be no need for total war. Anyway, waiting until country X conquers the whole SA would be out of question, even if any SA country was capable of achieving this.
 
Last edited:

Angel Walker

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I'll be happy if i can see realistic resource allocations worldwide (all the resources of the world were not in Europe and USA) AND be able to mobilize the minor's population for war.

Well, that's another issue. I have the impression that most of the resources are just randomly distributed in major European/USA cities (with the exception of crude oil). Probably as a balance measure so the factories can supply themselves. In the case of minors, with a few exceptions (like Swedish ore), their capitals will frequently hold all of their resource production, which is kept to a minimum (so they can sustain their also minimal IC). Well, it got better in TFH with strategic resources, many of which are within minor's territories, so I expect Paradox will go down that road, potentially making minors more interesting.

Another problem is the population. Minors will get very small manpower, which would never let you simulate cases such as the Chaco War, which you just described. But then again I think the whole manpower system is very simplistic and will likely get an overhaul. A suggestion which I liked is different kinds of manpowers, so a minor, that has been pushed into total war (which was the case of the Chaco War), could potentially field a large, yet very inexperienced and badly trained, army, probably with huge malus to the industry and the stability of the country as a whole.

Of course, it should remain impossible for Paraguay to field a hundred thousand man army with up-to-date doctrines and equipements, even if they completely neglect all other aspects of research.

Yet if you look at the Chaco war you'll see that (excepting Cañada Strongest - though how strong the three 'divisions' on either side of that battle were is questionable) none of the battles involved more than 1-2 divisions on either side, and most much less. I strongly suspect the "mobilised" figures over-state the actual numbers of soldier deployed to the combat zone instead of, e.g., working on the line-of-communications.

Well, could be. I don't feel it was a particularly well-documented war. This text, which I read a while ago, claims 80 000 - 100 000 dead and 300 000 prisoners captured by Paraguay. But then apparently The Guardian puts the death toll at 35 000 (which is still pretty high, as there were likely close to no civilian casualties...).

I doubt the American public would have wanted anything to do with a war in South America.. Only weeks before Pearl Harbour support for joining the war against Germany was around 8%.

Well, I feel like going to war in Europe is one thing, going to war in America is completely different (the Monroe Doctrine comes to mind). I'd say that the United States was much more interventionist when it came to Latin America, even in the interwar period. Although it did not get directly involved in the Chaco War nor in the Ecuadorian-Peruvian war, I don't think it'd just let a regional power like Argentina just go rampaging in the continent, no matter the political situation at the time.

If you throw in the political situation, seeing that Argentina was under a right-wing government, it had a large population of Germanic origins (among many other factors), the idea that a potentially pro-axis regional power was going rampage in South America would make intervention way more likely.

Of course, that's ignoring the fact that conquering the whole of South America as Argentina is not ridiculous in itself :p


As I said before, minors don't have to be stronger. You can accomplish a lot with regional powers, and if you don't bother abusing some exploits, a lot with minors too. It's just that they are not fun, they have no flavor, it's not immersive to play them, and you'd only do it for the challenge. A better distribution of resources and a better manpower system could help, without necessarily making them stronger. More interesting peacetime options and, above everything, better diplomatic and political systems could make a huge change.

Like in EU, make it enjoyable to win by reaching goals relative to the size of your country. You should be able to play Argentina and have fun without doing utterly unrealistic things such as conquering the whole of South America.

However, I do realize that it's something very hard to do, as minors have never been enjoyable in this particular series.