Stronger minors?

[safe-keeper]

One thing I disliked in Hearts of Iron III was that all the minor nations were ridiculously primitive and weak. You could either play as a major nation, and have to contend with endless micromanagement and/or huge fronts, or a minor nation and basically have next to nothing to do, and it seemed that whenever you invaded a minor, be it Persia, Norway or New Zealand, it was always a pushover, you just strolled in, beat their army, took their victory points, and secured your new territory without breaking a sweat. Armies are tiny and primitive, there are very few victory points, which are often very easy to take (Norway only has a single one, for example, which makes it ridiculously easy to conquer even though the Norwegians kept fighting for a rather long time after losing our major cities in reality), and for some reason no one interferes with you as you grab minor after minor.

In HOI IV, can't the smaller nations be stronger? In my opinion, invading a minor nation should be as difficult as it was in reality, which would also make it more fun to play as these nations. Anyone with me on this?

 

[Otto of england]

I agree it was silly in HOI3 how European minors would be as technologically advanced as a third world country and in some instances such as Slovakia in the Götterdämmerung scenario you couldn't even recruit infantry to start with.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Agreed. Finland is good prove minors should not be underestimated. Luxemburg could invade Soviet Union any moment...

 

[nikssims]

Realistic minors my opinion, don't make them unrealistically powerful.

 

[juv95hrn]

Yes, because invading the unprepared and unmobilzied and surprised minor nations of Europe proved so hard for the German army.

I feel the minors were rather well represented in HOI3, strength-wise and technology wise. If you want to play your own nation with an unhistorical and unrealistic strength, why don't you mod it?

The reserve system was kind of broken in HOI3 but maybe this can be fixed and a surprised/non-surprised minor could be quite a difference.

 

[ingwe]

I felt as though minors were a little underpowered, but not too underpowered. It just felt difficult to stay up to date in any technologies with a minor. If I want to make sure that I can build half-decent interceptors and infantry, it shouldn't be so damn difficult.

 

[GermanKaiser]

So if Baltic states can get aid from brits then they would resist Soviets and maybe even win?

 

[SchwarzKatze]

I felt as though minors were a little underpowered, but not too underpowered. It just felt difficult to stay up to date in any technologies with a minor. If I want to make sure that I can build half-decent interceptors and infantry, it shouldn't be so damn difficult.

How about making obsolete tech cheaper? This way minors can catch up instead of creating a gap that only widens with time.

 

[1alexey]

WW2 was about warfare, where the side having a tiny(3-5% overall) advantage can, through concentration leverage huge gains from it by breaking defending forces piece by piece.

Any major vs minor would see minor at huge disadvantage, and hence swiftly rolled over unless the minor has a favorable terrain advantage and strong defense line like Czech.
I mean, look at Germany vs Poland. Germany didn`t had any advantage in terms of pure numbers, but managed to leverage crushing defeat through better positioning, better air force and better armor.

 

[Polarisan]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I played HoI3 as a minor and I thought it represented it quite well. If you want to steamroll over the world with Bulgaria you won't find it possible, however, having a big part in the taking of russian lands with Germany? totally possible and realistic.

If you want Argentina building carriers, then be my guest, but that's not realistic.

 

[Angel Walker]

I felt as though minors were a little underpowered, but not too underpowered. It just felt difficult to stay up to date in any technologies with a minor. If I want to make sure that I can build half-decent interceptors and infantry, it shouldn't be so damn difficult.

Well, it depends on the minor. Even a regional power (though that might vary on your definition of the term) like Brazil did not have the means to prepare for a modern war, so we ended up buying most of the equipment we used from the USA. I was reading about the Chaco War in 1935 between Paraguay and Bolivia, and pretty much everything used in the war was bought from Europe. Same for Ecuadorian–Peruvian war. Well, those are just some examples, and maybe a smaller, European nation could've done a bit better, but to have infantry and interceptors matching those of majors should be pretty unlikely.

I, too, have big problem with how minors play in HoI3, but it's not really an issue with their tech levels or overall weakness. I mean, they're supposed to be weak.

It's just that minors in HoI3 are not fun. They are all very bland, no decisions, no events, an awfully small quantity of military leaders and politicians. And I can't speak for every minor, but from what I observed in Latin America, frequently you'll get completely wrong terrain, misnamed provinces the size of Austria in relatively important urban areas, etc. In my opinion, all those things make it very hard to get immersed into the game.

So I wouldn't really expect to see minors stronger in HoIV, but I'd like to see them more polished. That said, it seems that HoI4 will be giving us other tools to play with, hopefully much better diplomacy and politics, so we'd not need to field massive armies to have fun.

 

[Cybvep]

I mean, look at Germany vs Poland. Germany didn`t had any advantage in terms of pure numbers, but managed to leverage crushing defeat through better positioning, better air force and better armor.

Lol, what? Germany had more men and several times more tanks and aircraft. How is that not an advantage in terms of pure numbers? Not to mention the fact that the Soviets back-stabbed Poland on 17th of September, making the situation even more hopeless.
You must have confused Fall Weiss with Fall Gelb or sth.

 

[Razor]

It's just that minors in HoI3 are not fun.

I completely agree! And this is a problem that should be adressed. Minors should not be stronger by default but it should be possible to make them stronger than historically correct before game start. A gui for that would be great of course.

 

[Art1985]

How about making obsolete tech cheaper? This way minors can catch up instead of creating a gap that only widens with time.

5 (or less) major countries know technology, it gradually spreads to the neighbors in the form of blueprints. I think it would be quite realistic. Technology that is already known to many is not a secret.

 

[safe-keeper]

I didn't include a disclaimer in my post that I was talking about realistic strength because I would have thought that obvious. Judging from the "omg u want to invade ussr with luxembor" posts... apparently not.

Edit: oh, wait, look at that, I actually did: "In HOI IV, can't the smaller nations be stronger? In my opinion, invading a minor nation should be as difficult as it was in reality"

It's just that minors in HoI3 are not fun. They are all very bland, no decisions, no events, an awfully small quantity of military leaders and politicians. And I can't speak for every minor, but from what I observed in Latin America, frequently you'll get completely wrong terrain, misnamed provinces the size of Austria in relatively important urban areas, etc. In my opinion, all those things make it very hard to get immersed into the game.

There is that, too. I understand that the devs have limited time, but yes, minors could be made more interesting.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The problem with HoI3 was how all the advantages multiplied with each other.


140% officers (200% early on) * more soft attack * better doctrine * better leaders * 5 times as much manpower/divisions * airsupport = a force 40 times stronger in battle.

Another problem is that the weather penalties being exclusive for attackers was removed, this lead to minors that historically had a chance like Finland to become roadkills.

How about making obsolete tech cheaper? This way minors can catch up instead of creating a gap that only widens with time.

That's something I also have been suggesting since way back in early HoI2 days.

Why only a ahead of time penalty? A "behind time" bonus to help you catch up is equally warranted.

 

[Cybvep]

Why only a ahead of time penalty? A "behind time" bonus to help you catch up is equally warranted.

DH has this feature and it works good . Ideally, there would be no need for historical year modifiers, though.

 

[IvoryState]

Minors could be fun in HOI3, they could just use a little more flavor. Military-wise they should have to ally with a major or get arms from a major to compete at all with with a greater country.

 

[1alexey]

The problem with HoI3 was how all the advantages multiplied with each other.

140% officers (200% early on) * more soft attack * better doctrine * better leaders * 5 times as much manpower/divisions * airsupport = a force 40 times stronger in battle.

It is true that minors have to saturate the front line width if they want any chance of surviving. Other advantages may not be present, as Officer ratio and soft attack techs are perfectly reserchable my minors, so is infantry organisation.

Finland can hold quite long because it`s infrastructure force SU into very narrow frontage in bad weather, but that is mostly historical, as the biggest reason SU did had to spent 3 month fighting Finland instead of 2 weeks had to do with logistics, and the fact that Fins had a prepared defense line, thus SU just bled Finish army dry and broke through. Other minors don`t have the luxury of strong position and thus are overruned.

 

[DPKdebator]

Maybe something easier for minors is to remove British guarantees on the Benelux and Arabia. This makes war possible without the red intervention