Strong navy- do we really need it and how to make it more important to general warfare (discussion)

[Mister Analyst]

Don't forget that dockyards work at 100 % efficiency from the start (both of the production and the game) and factories have 4.5 compared to 5 NIC production.
They also start at some 50% efficiency and take 10 years to reach 100%, so in all Fairness, dockyards are not getting worse, the worse option in terms of Output gets better faster.

Sorry about correcting you, but dockyard output is 2.5 instead of 5.

Per the HOI4 wiki

• Naval Dockyards: Ships, Submarines and Convoys. Have a base output of 2.5, but always have a production efficiency of 100%.
• Military factories: Infantry equipment, transport, artillery, armor, and aircraft. These have a base output of 4.5.

 

[Zauberelefant]

Sorry about correcting you, but dockyard output is 2.5 instead of 5.

Per the HOI4 wiki

• Naval Dockyards: Ships, Submarines and Convoys. Have a base output of 2.5, but always have a production efficiency of 100%.
• Military factories: Infantry equipment, transport, artillery, armor, and aircraft. These have a base output of 4.5.

Alright, thanks for the correction!

 

[Riekopo]

The OP asked two big broad questions: does a strong navy actually matter, and impact the war overall? As a France player I used to wonder the same thing, whether the navy is just a minigame, and always left it to the Brits to turn the Mediterranean a healthy shade of green. Being defeated at sea should "lose the war and lose it quickly", to invert Monty's phrase, but.. it doesn't really.. due to a number of distortions, such as Middle Eastern oil going to the axis overland - Turkey's rutted roads and cart tracks must be one huge traffic jam of tanker lorries..

But then I discovered the real impact of shore bombardment, which I'd previously thought of as merely a nice-to-have little bonus. In fact it makes a massive, perhaps decisive difference. With a fleet on either side of Italy, unopposed because the Regia Marina has been destroyed, I work my way up from Sicily with two thirds of the land battles receiving the full 25% effect.

Yeah it's pretty ridiculous after 4 years the Devs still haven't fixed Middle Eastern oil going to the Axis. If the Axis had Middle East oil in real life they might have won the war. That oil was under the control of French and British companies or government. Iraq and Iran were literally invaded to keep that oil secure so Germany couldn't get it.

I wonder if the fact that you can shore bombard almost all of Italy is historical? They might need to add more provinces to the center of the Italian peninsula. Seems like it might be an unfair advantage for an invader.

 

[Androbey]

IMO, "Naval Supremacy" is an ephemeral concept. If the game determines that you have "Naval Supremacy", It should represent that your commanders believe that the risks of operations in that zone are low enough so that you can perform time consuming operations with "acceptable risk". Not having "Naval Supremacy" should not prevent any operation. Both sides could have "Naval Supremacy" according to their Intelligence and spotting reports.

 

[Happy Trigger]

Yeah it's pretty ridiculous after 4 years the Devs still haven't fixed Middle Eastern oil going to the Axis. If the Axis had Middle East oil in real life they might have won the war. That oil was under the control of French and British companies or government. Iraq and Iran were literally invaded to keep that oil secure so Germany couldn't get it.

I wonder if the fact that you can shore bombard almost all of Italy is historical? They might need to add more provinces to the center of the Italian peninsula. Seems like it might be an unfair advantage for an invader.

Other day i was watching a video about an idea that the british and the french had had at the time, to bomb the romanian oil fields and maybe the sovietic fields too, to prevent the germans from getting fuel. I think the devs should implements the bombardment of resources in game. With a option to the defender side being able to prepare the destruction of some resources in advance, like the mission to blow up the Suez Canal in game.

 

[FindFloppies]

I’d like PDX to get rid of that dumb ‘Naval superiority’ altogether, it does nothing but constantly hamper your naval invasions, often without any clear reason (like your ships suddenly providing 0 supremacy despite sitting right next to that sea zone, or even inside it!)

If I want to send a daring invasion into England despite not having superior navy, why should I be blocked by some arbitrary game number?? 90% of my units being obliterated due to being intercepted? Sure, my very bad mistake, but STOP blocking me by a fleet located across the Atlantic In USA having a strike mission enabled for English channel!!!
There was a damn reason why large part of the UK navy had to stay near England and not be harassing random Venezuelan convoys in the carribean!

The last time I invaded England, I brought up about 2000 planes; fighters, heavy fighters, naval bombers, and CAS, too. They pounded anything that dared poke its nose out of port, and shot anything that flew out of the air. Once they stopped coming out of port, I brought up a 40-ship task force with 4 BBs + cruisers and destroyers. That force, along with a bunch of subs, and the air power, gave me enough supremacy to start the invasion. I lost about half my ships, but the invasion starting forced them to come out of port and contest the landings, and the air power decimated them.

 

[Riekopo]

Other day i was watching a video about an idea that the british and the french had had at the time, to bomb the romanian oil fields and maybe the sovietic fields too, to prevent the germans from getting fuel. I think the devs should implements the bombardment of resources in game. With a option to the defender side being able to prepare the destruction of some resources in advance, like the mission to blow up the Suez Canal in game.

Bombing infrastructure can greatly reduce Resource output. They added that soon after release.

 

[Happy Trigger]

Bombing infrastructure can greatly reduce Resource output. They added that soon after release.

But there's a limit to how much output you can reduce by bombing the infrastructure. I was talking about destroying the source of the resources, like directly bombing the mines and oil fields. They should add spy missions to destroy, for a limited time, a porcentage of this resources too. Plus, the possibility to destroy these resources like we can do with the Suez Canal, to prevent enemy from get their hands on them.

Though, i'm not sure how much you can lose, having your infrastruture being bombarded.

 

[seattle]

Depends on the combination of nation and naval strategy.

Let's take Germany as the protagonist of WW2.
I typically build the following:
- 1 super-heavy Battleship that massively boosts the starting navy
- refit the starting navy with better and more suitable equipment
- scouting submarines (cruiser or 1940 model with floating planes, radar, sonar)
- minelaying submarines (cruiser or 1940 model with 2 minelayers)
- raiding submarines
- lots of naval bombers

That's a relatively cheap, but powerful and versatile navy.
The investment in pimping the starting navy is well worth it and offers a great cost-utility ratio.
Naval bombers act like coastal carrier fleets. The submarines are cheap and effective in their 3 specific roles.

Plus, it doesn't require a lot of micromanagement. I rather focus on land warfare as Germany.

 

[Mister Analyst]

Though, i'm not sure how much you can lose, having your infrastruture being bombarded.

@Happy Trigger ,

Resources are increased by 10% per each level of infrastructure per the HOI4 wiki and development diary on Resources and Infrastructure. A state with maximum infrastructure (level 10) will double its resources. See the chart below. Strategic bombing that state can reduce those resources all the way down to the base resources, but cannot eliminate the base resources.

Notes:

• Patch 1.5 added the effect of infrastructure boostingresources, but "base resources" were also reduced to account for the infrastructure boosts. Example of the 1936 German Reich state Rhineland
  • Before patch 1.5
    • base steel resources = 54
  • After patch 1.5
    • base steel resources = 30
    • infrastructure level = 8
    • boosted steel resources = 54
      • calculation = 30 * (1 + (8 / 10)) = 30 * (1 + 0.8) = 30 * 1.8 = 54.0
    • strategic bombing the infrastructure would reduce the steel resources by 3 for each level of infrastructure destroyed
• Patch 1.5 infrastructure boosting resources are calculated to the nearest tenth, but the in-game resources are rounded to whole numbers (fractions less than 0.5 are rounded down while fractions at or above 0.5 are rounded up). Examples
  • 1.1 rounds down to 1
  • 1.4 rounds down to 1
  • 1.5 rounds up to 2
  • 1.7 rounds up to 2

Base Resources	Infrastructure Level	Boosted Resources (+10% per infrastructure level)	Total Resources
10 Oil	0	+0 Oil	10 Oil
10 Oil	1	+1 Oil	11 Oil
10 Oil	2	+2 Oil	12 Oil
10 Oil	3	+3 Oil	13 Oil
10 Oil	4	+4 Oil	14 Oil
10 Oil	5	+5 Oil	15 Oil
10 Oil	6	+6 Oil	16 Oil
10 Oil	7	+7 Oil	17 Oil
10 Oil	8	+8 Oil	18 Oil
10 Oil	9	+9 Oil	19 Oil
10 Oil	10	+10 Oil	20 Oil

 

[Happy Trigger]

Thanks @Mister Analyst.

 

[KubiG37]

The last time I invaded England, I brought up about 2000 planes; fighters, heavy fighters, naval bombers, and CAS, too. They pounded anything that dared poke its nose out of port, and shot anything that flew out of the air. Once they stopped coming out of port, I brought up a 40-ship task force with 4 BBs + cruisers and destroyers. That force, along with a bunch of subs, and the air power, gave me enough supremacy to start the invasion. I lost about half my ships, but the invasion starting forced them to come out of port and contest the landings, and the air power decimated them.

I did a very similar thing before.
But there is an easier way (That worked at least against AI):
1) Just prepare the invasion and enable it (won't launch because of Naval Supremacy)
2) Assign aircraft to the zone you are invading through and just a few ships to have some naval supremacy
3) Scramble your little surface fleet and send it to raid UK convoys somewhere outside the zone you are attacking
4) AI will get mad and send the main strike force to kill your fleet
5) The moment they engage your surface fleet their supremacy in the invasion region stops working for a while and your invasion(s) launch
6) That's it, enjoy your holiday in the UK, as the british army will most likely be busy somewhere else

 

[mpop]

I don't like how the navy currently works because I always end up building the same ship with the same module/hull that is the most cost effective and naval bombers are too overpowered wrecking whole major fleet as a minor. I feel too limited by the ship designer due to resource/ic cost of some modules. slapping 2 tier 3-4 batteries, better deck armor and the cost of resources will make it double/triple so I always end up building cheap ships that are too effective and cheap winning naval battle easily.