Stream comments

[Fluksen]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but I think the one thing that is pushing low tier units in regards to T3 and T4 is the production overflow.
Otherwise:

If anything t4 spam was much worse in the older 8 stack games and AoW3 was the first in the series to truly address the problem.

Yes! But I really don't think that is thanks to the decreased stack size... I pretty much agree with:

6 unit stack is very strict limit to decide which units are useful or not.

Having said that with everything we heard from Tombles like:

T3 and T4 units also have cosmite upkeep
[...] I'm not against putting in some kind of cap on units counts. Perhaps a limit on the number of T4s, or perhaps on total unit count (i.e. like how supply works in star craft) but I'm hoping that energy and cosmite upkeep will mean that's not needed.
5) Hopefully, most units have flaws that encourage mixed armies. Right now, the biggest flaw of most T3 and T4 units is that they have slow move speed. An Army of T1/T2 units moves 33% faster on the world map than one which contains a tank.[...]

It seems to me that they are moving in the right direction there! Especially making the T3 and T4 units slower is really good imho since speed is one of the biggest problems in this hypothetical manticore vs pikemen calculations that keep being thrown around.
Also most flyers that we have seen so far are T2 so they can nicely do what BBB wrote here:

Now arguably that's the entire point of a flying unit, to be able to make surgical strikes and run rings around land bound units

without being hard to effectively counter as manticores are.
Just one thing though @Tombles : Capping total unit count like in starcraft will actually increase T3/4 spam me thinks because every unit spot gets more valuable you can see that in sc2 where players just send low tier units over the map in lategame when they are maxed out to make space for higher tier units...
Also:

I do think you guys would benefit HUGELY from having a tactical battles only mode, which could be a quick and easy to use tool to run various battles for yourself, to get a sense of what is good and not.
PLUS it'd make an awesome game mode in it's own right, adding 'legs' to the game.

+1

 

[Fenraellis]

First off, that Valkyrie has two 10% damage mods and one 20% damage mod. The base strength is only 14, which is lower than a Ravenous(15 strength melee), while also only having 2 Armor rating to a Ravenous's 5 base rating(to cite another T3 melee unit).

Second, considering the most recent stream, and what they are currently testing. Mod costs have changed drastically.

It used to be +15%/25%/35% Energy cost and 8/15/30 Cosmite for a mod, based on relative Low/Mid/High tiers(Tier 1-3/4-6/7-10, I believe it was).

Now, as the above image shows(and further watching of the video), it seems to be 10/4 flat for a Low tier mod for a T1 unit, increasing for a T2 unit(Abyssian base cost is 75 Energy, but the modded version shown has an increased cost of 60 Energy and 24 Cosmite). The second mod on the Abyssian is a Tier 4 unit mod, so the mod costs for a T2 are likely 15/6 for Low tier mods and 30/12 for Mid tier(20/8 for a T1 unit using the same), totaling out to 60/24, as shown. Either that, or they shifted Tier 4 unit mods into Low tier, and the mod costs double to 20/8 for T2 units, but that seems less likely.

Anyway, depending on how they scale costs, I foresee two likely number scaling rates. Either:
A) T1 = x1, T2 = x1.5, T3 = x2, T4 = x2.5
or
B) T1 = x1, T2 = x1.5, T3 = x2, T4 = x3

Mods themselves would likely have a base cost of 10/4, 20/8, and 40 /16 Cosmite for Low, Mid and High tiers.

In that example, a T1(base cost40/0) with three Low tier unit mods would cost as shown, 70/12. A T4(base cost 250/100) with three Low tier unit mods would cost either 325/130 or 340/136. A relative 30/12 versus 75/30 or 90/36. Alternatively, a relative 70/12 versus 325/130 or 340/136. About four or five T1s by Energy cost, and about eleven(!) by Cosmite cost.

Make it two Mid and one High tier mod, and that's still a rather stark difference, although the Cosmite efficiency improves for the higher tier unit.
20 + 20 + 40 = 80 Energy and 8 + 8 + 16 = 32 Cosmite for the T1, for a total of 120/32.
A) 50 + 50 + 100 = 200 Energy and 20 + 20 + 40 = 80 Cosmite for the T4, for a total of 450/180.
B) 60 + 60 + 120 = 240 Energy and 24 + 24 + 48 = 96 Cosmite for the T4, for a total of 490/196.

As such, you could make about four T1s by Energy cost, but now it's about six by Cosmite cost. I'm fairly sure in the new system, four to six T1s can work over a T4, although that might not be the best example, with T4s leaning towards a support role. Even a T3(130/40 base cost one) would cost around 190/64 and 290/104 with the above 'Low tier' and 'mix Mid/High tier' unit mod examples. Running between six to three times the Cosmite costs, and I'm sure they would lose to such an amount of T1 units in many cases.

On a side note, @Tombles, the fact unit mods still didn't appear to adjust production cost even in the latest stream, and even considering the Military Engineering Guild(s) for those dedicated to unit production, I'm surprised people are commenting about unit production taking too long.

 

[Liberty_Valance]

Just on the unit (tier) cap system, not sure what everyones individual opinion on this but if the system is there that leads to tonnes of posibilities, eg you could build custom tiers with limit productuon, eg Tier5 special might be just 2 or 1!

Eg Titan units, Say you produce can only produce 1 Kirko Hive Queen, or two Vangaurd Armageddon Tanks. Kinda like DOW2 or Warlords battlecries 3 Titans (extreme late game)

You could even just produce one VG Officer unit similar to COH'S with special support abilities like command auras where having too many would be ridiculous.

Hope that systems in!!!

 

[BloodyBattleBrain]

Just on the unit (tier) cap system, not sure what everyones individual opinion on this but if the system is there that leads to tonnes of posibilities, eg you could build custom tiers with limit productuon, eg Tier5 special might be just 2 or 1!

Eg Titan units, Say you produce can only produce 1 Kirko Hive Queen, or two Vangaurd Armageddon Tanks. Kinda like DOW2 or Warlords battlecries 3 Titans (extreme late game)

You could even just produce one VG Officer unit similar to COH'S with special support abilities like command auras where having too many would be ridiculous.

Hope that systems in!!!

Honoured Minotaur...(btw your avatar rocks)

I believe the same objective can be achieved within the existing framework, i.e. no need for a supply system.

 

[Liberty_Valance]

Do you mean its already in? Or possible with aow3? I coudnt figure out a method to have tier unit limits.

 

[Dr_K]

Do you mean its already in? Or possible with aow3? I coudnt figure out a method to have tier unit limits.

I'm pretty sure it's not in AoW3. I've never seen anything close to that kind of functionality in the mod editor.

Just on the unit (tier) cap system, not sure what everyones individual opinion on this but if the system is there that leads to tonnes of posibilities, eg you could build custom tiers with limit productuon, eg Tier5 special might be just 2 or 1!

I'd rather not have hard caps, especially on units. However, It would be nice to have a supply system or hard tier caps in as an option or existing system to be modded in.

 

[Jolly Joker]

I don't think hard tier caps make sense. Ever. They obviously need to be different for different map sizes , and as soon as you hit one limit, you'll just crank out the next best thing, if the game as such is just about that. This in turn leads to a balancing problem, because even with a limit the unit must be worth to be researched and produced, and that in turn means, the unit must be VERY powerful (otherwise a hard cap doesn't make sense because no one would bother).

 

[ashbery76]

EndlessSpace2 had a good solution to their top tier behemoths top by making each new one built twice as expensive after a cap.This also solves the map size issue.

I also think the tactical combat roles need mixing up because balance armies should be better than the big bad tank,etc.In totalwar top tier units alone would not do very well on the battlefield.

 

[Tomipapa]

All those examples(SC2, Endless Space ect.) have much fewer units. In a game where you have 100++ different kind of units, hard tier cap would be a terrible idea imo. The learning curve would be much longer since you have to play more games just to know what each unit does, how they work together ect. You could easily end up in a situation where you have to disband you units just to try a new one, or get one as a quest reward. High tier spam is purely and exclusively economical problem, and should be adressed on that level.

 

[Jolly Joker]

In my book you got the economy wrong, when you cn build just top tier units and succeed. In rich settings you get what you bargain for when you pick that setting.

The silly thing with the ES 2 solution is that USUALLY, you'd LESSEN production cost with mass production. Making them more expensive with numbers doesn't make sense from a production point of view and looks very artificial.

In Planetfall, I think the mods and their handling are pretty essential, because I think that units can be much improved much with up to 3 mods, the mods having the advantage that you can tailor a general unit of any tier to the specific needs of opponent(s), terrain/climate, army composition and resource needs/production facilities. In other words, units will more or less consist of a general tier that can be 1-4 and of a specific tier that can be 1-3, and I suppose that there won't be many situations where you just can put out general Tier 4s, while T4s with up to 3 mods will possibly cost so much Cosmite that you can build only a few.

So I think we'll see a lot more "tailored" stacks than raw power T4 stacks. I mean, you can't build a simple T4 when its damage channels aren't worth much against the current opponent, and you are better off with lower-tier-high mod constructions.

As a last point against hard caps - the AI would have different caps anyway, obviously -, there may be situations where building a certain T4 is your only counter against masses of not-capped, but highly effective 3-mod units (there will for sure by highly research-expensive and very effective late-game mods).

 

[BloodyBattleBrain]

I meant that in planetfall we have enough tools I think to limit higher tier units without needing a supply system.


Iirc in aow3 some units couldn't be hurried, and you could mod this too.

I imagine if every t4 units had a cost increase and couldn't be rushed, it would have made a difference in aow3.

In Planetfall, I think you can make total number of sectors held by a city a prerequisite, or x amount of industrial districts etc.

 

[Leon Feargus]

This thread has derailed a bit and off the beaten track it found t4 spam once again. I'm thinking why can't it be like the summoning classes in aow3? There was no Horned God spam, nor Dread Reapers galore and even Eldritch Horrors were limited despite Age of Magic (or am I wrong here?). The reason for this was not the limited supply of mana but the limited amount of Casting Points. Only the building classes that were not restricted in this way could spam their highest tier units. So if they could reproduce that system by way of Operations or Doctrines or Cosmite, it will be alright, me thinks.

If not, maybe an alternative solution would be to add another victory condition: Military Superiority. The first to x units wins, with x being a variable in the scenario setup. Other players will of course get a fair warning when someone approaches the threshold. You bet that whoever wins like this will have a lot of low tier units and the player who is building t4's will have a splendid time trying to prevent the MS by exterminating wherever they can.

 

[Jolly Joker]

Agree with BBB, that rushing production came too "cheap" in AoW 3. Of course there are many ways to "punish" production rushing, but this should have been handled more with a view on the amount of production rushed (the way it has been previously).

I also had the idea, that "production rushing" might involve a chance that the product is "flawed". For example, the percentage of the actual production that was rushed might be the probability of one or more "structural flaws" in the product, decreasing random stats, preferably HPs.
Another option would be an increased upkeep (due to a higher need for R&R/Maintenance).

I mean, there ARE times, when production rushing makes a lot of sense, but these are times of NEED, not times of wealth and success. So strictly spoken, if you are successful and have a lot of resources, production rushing should cost and arm and a leg, whereas in times of need it wouldn't cost more, but the product might be flawed. Might even have an ability like "Deteriorating", same as Cadavers have in AoW 3.

I would be inclined to say that production rushing is a more complex matter in a game with such a bandwidth of settings and such a delicate balance that a really "cool" mechanism of production rushing might be postponed to the time after release as a matter for some later patch, because the impact of it is potentially very high.

 

[Fenraellis]

Well, having not seen a T4 unit's details, we don't know for sure if they have the 'Elite' trait, like T3 units do. If not, they have no means of benefiting from an up to -50% production cost via an Advanced Military Engineering Guild from a Production-specialized Sector. Which is sort of like inhibiting the ability to rush them, relative to other units which could benefits from either Military Engineering Guild structure.
Then again, they would also not benefit from the potential +3 Armor rating from the same source, which would also make them less desirable, for better or for worse. It would reinforce their implied less directly combat oriented role, I suppose.

That all being said, considering they showed up in the unit list of the Vanguard stream after all of the military buildings were produced, I imagine they might simply require all military buildings. As it was, they had all or nothing, though, when building in the stream with the cheat, so we can't really know for sure.

 

[Fluksen]

This thread has derailed a bit and off the beaten track it found t4 spam once again

Yes please there are so many threads already that end up in this overrated T4 spam discussion (and I'm to blame there too ) but could we try to bring it back to topic?

[Fanboy mode on]
I think the 2nd stream was even better than the first one! Not only because Kir'Ko > Vanguard but also because they loaded a savegame to show a mid(?) game Kir'Ko hive and a more challenging battle, also they picked a surprising secret tech (at least I was expecting xenoplague) mixing things up. All things that we were pretty eager to see! The cliffhanger showing the Dvar at the end was also great!

But most of all it just always felt more like them wanting to show off all the cool things they've programmed to the community as opposed to a "generic advertising for the masses". I don't know how good that is from a general marketing perspective, maybe making some flashy videos that don't tell anything about the actual gameplay will attract more people (which would be a very good thing).
I really appreciate that Lennart, Arnout and Tom(bles) expose themselves instead of letting a paradox marketing professional do what would probably end up as a more "professionally smooth" but much less interesting promotion video.
Keep on doing this please
[/Fanboy mode out]

 

[BloodyBattleBrain]

guys it's hardly a derail when the closing comment of the OP talks about T4 "spam"


One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is how there is considerably less jank in Stream 2 than in 1.


In stream 1 we had a ravenous attack it's own unit, and some interesting animation where the frenzied kind of slid across the floor...


I haven't noticed anything like that in stream 2.

also, stream 1 did feel a bit more of an overview of cool stuff, the very "generic advertising" you mentioned @Fluksen whereas stream 2 felt a bit more focussed and, dare I say it, a bit more geeky.

 

[Jean-Luc]

I haven't noticed anything like that in stream 2.

Don't tell the press but @24:30 the sniper hero had an awkward firing animation because the shot came out during ammo loading but maybe that's due to sped up animations.