Stray Shot Mechanic

[Blade_mercurial]

So, I've refrained from posting this topic until now because I wanted to get more experience with the UW expansion to see if this was in fact a case of lack of experience/understanding on my part, or if it really, truly is a case of poor implementation.

Now after a few months, I feel confident in saying that it is the latter: this mechanic is [Mod edit: hyperbolic disrespect/flamebait phrasing] (or perhaps to be more fair, rushed) game design. While I have no problem with the idea behind the mechanic, it needs to be improved because the way it works currently, it is YET ANOTHER means to just ignore Evasion. This game already kind of trivializes dodginess, so I feel like it crosses a line (YMMV). Just for the record, let's list all the ways Evasion can be completely nullified or countered:

--Sensor Lock
--Melee and Support Weapon Attacks
--High Stability Damage
--Any attack that has substantial high ground (see also thread on impact on multi-player)
--Stray Shots (i.e. if you see two enemies close together, line them up so the easy target is in front and the high Evasion target behind, and then aim at the easy target---any misses will most likely hit the nearby high Evasion target).

Obviously, the first 3 options have been in the game since the beginning, and they are fine, legitimate counters, of course. But the last two are probably UNINTENDED, and even if they are not, they should be seriously modified because right now, evasion is becoming TOO EASY (YMMV) to counter.

The way I see it, there are two possible solutions to the current problem with stray shots: 1) just allow stray shots to make a separate attack roll on the nearby targets, thus making their Evasion Pips actually matter. 2) Reduce the size of the 'cone' in which stray shots can occur, because right now it seems very generous (i.e. it can occur even when nearby mechs are not even really along a straight line relative to the attacker and the intended target).

Thanks for reading!

 

[mjbroekman]

The only one in the list that completely nullifies / counters evasion is melee / support attacks since they, well, ignore it (but still strip it). That, I would say, should change.

Sensor Lock is supposed to be the counter to evasion.

High stability damage weapons hardly counter evasion let alone completely nullify it. The maximum stability damage from a non-melee/DFA attack is 60. That's less than half the stability bar on a medium and only takes off 1 evasion chevron. High damage weapons are more of a threat to completely nullify evasion as taking off a leg will remove all stability from the mech (and knock them down) regardless of evasion or current stability state.

The substantial high ground advantage does seem to need re-evaluation in light of the impact on multiplayer, but that seems to be MP-specific. It's not that noticeable in SP outside of urban environments because the AI simply doesn't take advantage of it.

Stray shots still need to hit in order to impact the evasion of the 'stray' target. It's not just a magical "it hits the other target" effect. From what I understand, you still end up having to check to see if you hit the 'stray' target. If you have a 60% hit to hit a target, I don't think stray shots have any 'bonus' to make that easier. (EDIT: It might be a misunderstanding on my part, but I don't think it is. Pretty sure that stray shots respect evasive chevrons)

There are plenty of times where I've fired on one target (with additional valid targets around it) and missed but still not generated a "Stray Shot" hit on other valid targets in the line of fire. To me, that seems to indicate that you have to still actually HIT those other targets. And, of course, missing those 'stray' targets doesn't strip evasion like it does on your intended target. You only strip evasion on a stray shot if you end up hitting the 'stray' target.

I've been trying to figure out the 'sweet spot' for generating stray shot hits, myself. Do you use low gunnery pilots in order to have a better chance of MISSING your intended target and getting opportunities to hit 'stray' targets? Or do you take high gunnery pilots where, if you DO miss, you end up with a higher chance to hit a 'stray' but you have a relatively low chance to miss your intended target? Or is there a middle ground that's better than those extremes?

 

[Blade_mercurial]

Stray shots still need to hit in order to impact the evasion of the 'stray' target. It's not just a magical "it hits the other target" effect. From what I understand, you still end up having to check to see if you hit the 'stray' target. If you have a 60% hit to hit a target, I don't think stray shots have any 'bonus' to make that easier. (EDIT: It might be a misunderstanding on my part, but I don't think it is. Pretty sure that stray shots respect evasive chevrons)

There are plenty of times where I've fired on one target (with additional valid targets around it) and missed but still not generated a "Stray Shot" hit on other valid targets in the line of fire. To me, that seems to indicate that you have to still actually HIT those other targets. And, of course, missing those 'stray' targets doesn't strip evasion like it does on your intended target. You only strip evasion on a stray shot if you end up hitting the 'stray' target.

I've been trying to figure out the 'sweet spot' for generating stray shot hits, myself. Do you use low gunnery pilots in order to have a better chance of MISSING your intended target and getting opportunities to hit 'stray' targets? Or do you take high gunnery pilots where, if you DO miss, you end up with a higher chance to hit a 'stray' but you have a relatively low chance to miss your intended target? Or is there a middle ground that's better than those extremes?

Perhaps I did not make my post clear enough, since it appears you misunderstand me. I'm NOT saying that Sensor Lock, Melee/Support Attacks or Stability Damage should be changed in any way shape or form. Those things are INTENDED to negate Evasion in varying degrees, and they are working fine as is and fulfill their intended functions. I am NOT suggesting changing any of those things! I only listed them for the sake of showing that there are a number of valid ways to get around the problem of hitting high Evasion targets, and that is fine (there should be!).

However, Stray Shots ignoring Evasion is I believe NOT an intended effect of the mechanic, but it IS in fact happening! This is why I took so long to post this. I wanted to play quite a few games and experience it and try to figure out what is happening. My conclusion is that your assessment above is NOT true:

'Stray Shots still need to hit in order to impact the evasion of the 'stray' target. It's not just a magical "it hits the other target" effect. From what I understand, you still end up having to check to see if you hit the 'stray' target. If you have a 60% hit to hit a target, I don't think stray shots have any 'bonus' to make that easier. (EDIT: It might be a misunderstanding on my part, but I don't think it is. Pretty sure that stray shots respect evasive chevrons)'

It IS a misunderstanding on your part, because Stray Shots DO NOT respect Evasion and DO NOT make a separate hit roll. If it did, I wouldn't bother posting this. Admittedly, its not 100% certain that a stray shot occurs (there must be some kind of check to see if one is generated per miss), but the chances of a stray shot occurring are substantially higher than if a separate to-hit roll had been made (in most cases). I can't put an exact number on it, but based on my attempts to track stray shots in my games over the last month or so, it appears to be at least 80% of the time, maybe more.....Contrast this with a normal shot on a target carrying 4 or even 5 Evasion Pips, and that is a HUGE boost in accuracy (although its not a reliable way of bypassing Evasion simply because you may end up hitting the target you selected and therefore not generating any stray shots, depending on circumstances).

So again, I implore the Devs to look into ways of fixing stray shot, because I honestly believe the game does NOT need this additional method of bypassing Evasion, particularly since it appears to be an UNINTENDED consequence of introducing the stray shot mechanic in the first place (although I could be wrong about that). Either coding in an actual attack roll, or even just reducing the invisible stray shot 'cone' (the area around a target that the game uses to generate potential stray shots) I believe would improve the game play experience, in my humble opinion.

 

[mjbroekman]

I'm NOT saying that Sensor Lock, Melee/Support Attacks or Stability Damage should be changed in any way shape or form. Those things are INTENDED to negate Evasion in varying degrees, and they are working fine as is and fulfill their intended functions. I am NOT suggesting changing any of those things! I only listed them for the sake of showing that there are a number of valid ways to get around the problem of hitting high Evasion targets, and that is fine (there should be!).

Sorry for the misunderstanding on that part. From the context of the list, it seemed that you were saying some of those things were complete counters to evasion and I was disagreeing that some of them were, in any way, 'completely nullifying' or 'countering' evasion. Example, high stab damage weapons. There's nothing special about "high stab damage" weapons that makes them especially 'counter' to evasion. If you had simply said stability damage then sure, that counters evasion when you cross the unstable threshold, but there's nothing special about "high stab damage" weapons in that regard.

DO NOT make a separate hit roll. If it did, I wouldn't bother posting this. Admittedly, its not 100% certain that a stray shot occurs (there must be some kind of check to see if one is generated per miss), but the chances of a stray shot occurring are substantially higher than if a separate to-hit roll had been made (in most cases).

Given that I've experienced plenty of situations where it looks like a stray shot should have hit something but didn't (like having the weapon intersect a building but not causing damage and not popping a 'stray shot' floater), I think there is actually a check going on to see if the intersection generates a hit. I can't for the life of me think of what they wouldn't use the existing code for determining a hit in those situations, but I'd have to turn on combat debug logging and play some more to get a better feel for it.

As you clearly feel it's something that's broken, I'd suggest turning on combat debug logging and see if you can generate some logs showing the stray shots and open a bug report. I'll try to do the same.

On the whole, though, I do agree with you that evasion is getting the shaft in terms of combat effect, which is sad.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

The basis of your concern is from the hits your mechs tahe or the other side?

The counter to stray shots is spreading your mechs out. I see a mechanic designed to encourage less grouping of the players mechs. The advice about the logs is a good idea though since data is certainly valuable for these types of discussions.

 

[Jade_Rook]

Clearly more info is needed on whether stray shots are affected by evasion. Perhaps somsomeone could take a look through the logs and see what info is in there? I don't think stray shots are affected by evasion, but I don't know.

Personally, I really enjoy the stray shot mechanic. They add new tactical considerations. I can cluster all of my mechs in this patch of cover, but if I do they will be vulnerable to stray shots. Those enemies are going to be hard to hit, but I can angle my shots so that if I miss they can still hit the other mech. I can jump on this building for some good shots and high evasion, but the enemy has a lot of LRMs and if they miss, it will probably bring the building down.

 

[Blade_mercurial]

As you clearly feel it's something that's broken, I'd suggest turning on combat debug logging and see if you can generate some logs showing the stray shots and open a bug report. I'll try to do the same.

On the whole, though, I do agree with you that evasion is getting the shaft in terms of combat effect, which is sad.

I do not know how to turn on combat debug logging, but that does sound like the best way to look into it.

The basis of your concern is from the hits your mechs tahe or the other side?

The counter to stray shots is spreading your mechs out. I see a mechanic designed to encourage less grouping of the players mechs. The advice about the logs is a good idea though since data is certainly valuable for these types of discussions.

To be clear, I am not complaining that Stray Shot exists, or that I am personally struggling to deal with it. Quite the opposite in fact. Its very easy for me, an experienced player, to minimize the effects of stray shots on my lance, but the AI is not only incapable of taking it into account, but through careful lining up my shots, I have on a few occasions managed to destroy 2 mechs with a single mech's attack (without having multi-shot) simply by abusing the Stray Shot mechanic.

No, my only concern here is that Stray Shot is not making a TO-HIT roll against nearby allies, and thus it is an exploit for bypassing their Evasion. Granted, its not a reliable method, nor even a super common one, but I believe the game would be better off if there was a to-hit roll.

Now if someone is able to do a combat logging thing and checks this out and finds that I am in fact wrong and there is a To-hit roll, then I guess I'm wrong. But I really don't think so...

 

[Donvale]

From personal experience if you stand a fully evasive light mech directly in front of a stationary heavy mech it will be completely obliterated by AC turret fire!
To be fair to me I didn't actually know the turrets were there and going to fire at that mech and it was only a few days after the mechanic had been introduced!
But I do agree with the original poster, I now frequently use the tactic of lining up a small fast mech with a much slower one and often get CT kills like this from heavier weapons, it feels dirty, but it is extremely effective and it much better than multishot as they were missed and otherwise wasted shots.
I wonder if a better although harder to justify solution wouldn't be to have a damage reduction from evasion on stray shots (call them glancing shots perhaps). The effect would still be there, but at least it wouldn't be coring light mechs with missed shots.

 

[Blade_mercurial]

[mod edit: Please use the report function rather than responding to disrespectful comments.]

I've identified a possible exploit/problem with the game system and suggested a possible way to fix it. I wish I had the ability to thoroughly 'test' it, but I simply do not know how to do that, despite doing a google search (there's some outdated info on debug mode or some such, but nothing specifically about combat logging).

If someone knows how to enable combat logging (or whatever its called), and cares to explain the procedure, then it would be much appreciated!

 

[The Shadowhawke]

I'm not sure of the math behind this particular mechanic of the game, but-

1) Stray shots appear to be fairly rare.

2) Like all of you by now, I have both delivered and received stray shots. In both cases the damage is light at best.

3) No idea if evasion plays into the mechanic (but it should), but in my experience to date, the things that take the most stray shots and damage from those shots are very large objects with absolutely zero evasion...i.e.; buildings.

 

[Simon1812]

Im pretty sure , I have observed stray shots removing evasion points from mechs that were not the intended target Shadowhawke...not saying that's good or bad mind you.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

Im pretty sure , I have observed stray shots removing evasion points from mechs that were not the intended target Shadowhawke...not saying that's good or bad mind you.

When a mech is hit by a stray shot then it will lose 1 evasion.

 

[Donvale]

I'm not sure of the math behind this particular mechanic of the game, but-

1) Stray shots appear to be fairly rare.

2) Like all of you by now, I have both delivered and received stray shots. In both cases the damage is light at best.

3) No idea if evasion plays into the mechanic (but it should), but in my experience to date, the things that take the most stray shots and damage from those shots are very large objects with absolutely zero evasion...i.e.; buildings.

1: Stray shots would be fairly rare, except that you can deliberately engineer them with relative ease, it doesn't matter how far apart enemy mechs are they just need to be in line to be hit and as movement is turn based there is no real way (especially for the AI to avoid it) if someone is deliberately seeking to engineer it.

2: For a light mech a stray shot from a Large Laser or AC 10 is anything but light, these are both great weapons for it due to high damage + long range to enable stray shots on enemies a long way behind the target, early on in a new career and I am finishing off a Light mech like this at least every second mission or so, maybe more often, Locusts I sometimes destroy without ever targeting them deliberately, I simply line them up behind my primary target each time.

3: If your deliberately engineering it you can stray shot anything you like pretty eaily, evasion does not appear to be a factor, you could say they go from stray to deliberate shots...

I'm not really sure that the above really even constitutes a problem (although in multiplayer it certainly would!) however it definitely changes the mechanics pretty drastically, so needs to be thought about, the previously missing pretty often AC10 has suddenly become a bit of a beast in the early game.

 

[The Shadowhawke]

It's still a shot, even if unintended, so it still knocks off an evasion mark, but the question seems to be how much existing evasion modifies a stray shot.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

If you are good enough to engage the enemy in such a way that they are lined up then there is no reason you shouldn't benefit. But from my experience (since we're just going with our general experience and no actual data) I don't get that many stray shots on the enemy nor do I get that many on me (except when/if I'm clustered in that batch of forest to get bulwark activated).

 

[Blade_mercurial]

I'm not really sure that the above really even constitutes a problem (although in multiplayer it certainly would!) however it definitely changes the mechanics pretty drastically, so needs to be thought about, the previously missing pretty often AC10 has suddenly become a bit of a beast in the early game.

Not only that, but if you get your hands on a Gauss Rifle (as I have in one of my playthroughs) you can get some pretty devastating stray shots. For me, stray shot has become common enough that I can make it happen at least 2 or 3 times per battle (not counting buildings). In the case of the Gauss Rifle, it basically has 100% hit chances provided there is another enemy in the 'stray shot zone' to the target you are shooting at. In fact, I've had a case where I fired the Gauss at an Orion, but it missed and hit the head of a nearby Awesome. Of course it was really hilarious 'one-shotting' one of the most heavy armoured mechs in the game by accident, but it also felt wrong at the same time...

And I have some more 'anecdotal' cases of using stray shots, like destroying both a damaged Quickdraw and a full health Thunderbolt in a single volley. The Quickdraw had jumped in front of the Thunderbolt and so had 4 evasion pips, but only about 60 structure remaining in its CT (and its Right Arm/Right Torso were destroyed), but had turned its right side towards my SLDF Highlander. The Thunderbolt had 1 evasion pip and was undamaged. A Precision Strike from my Highlander aiming at the Thunderbolt's Centre Torso (with Gauss Rifle, LL, LRM 10, SRM 6 and 2 MLs) cored the Quickdraw and caused an ammo explosion on the Thunderbolt, thus destroying both. So its not just a case of easily killing light mechs...

I did a bunch of 'play-tests' using low Gunnery mechwarriors in skirmish mode against a variety of enemy mechs, but mostly lights and mediums. The purpose of these battles was to see how often stray shot occurs when shooting at high evasion targets (because the more evasion, the more likely to miss, and therefore the more likely stray shots are generated). As I mentioned earlier, it felt around 80% chances of stray shots occuring, but again, I have no hard proof to support that 'feeling'. With most targets having 3 or 4 evasion pips, and my actual hit chances (as displayed when targeting an enemy) being around 40%, this seemed entirely off, and suggests that there is in fact no actual hit roll on a stray shot (but that there is some kind of random check to see whether a stray shot occurs). But again, I have no hard evidence of exactly how the mechanic works.

I've figured out roughly how big the area around the target mech seems to be (in which a stray shot can potentially occur). Its at least 3 - 5 'hexes' in front of the target, plus another 8 - 12 'hexes' behind the target, and at least 2 or 3 'hexes' to either side of the target. I realize the spaces that mechs move through are not actually 'hexes', but I'm not sure what else to call them.

Ultimately though, HBS knows exactly how Stray Shot works and whether or not it needs to be fixed. My intention with starting this thread is not to make the game worse or to have Stray Shot removed from the game (because like others who have commented here, I like the idea of the mechanic). I just want to see it reigned in a bit or somehow modified to make it a little less easy to abuse.

I guess I hope that by creating this thread, I will have at least highlighted the possibility of a potential issue/problem with Stray Shot. However, whether HBS has the time or inclination to do anything about it is entirely up to them.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

And I can tell you that I've been running a game with 2 SL Highlanders (and 2 Gauss) and the number of times I've taken off an opponent's head with stray shots totals 2. I couldn't tell you how many times I've gotten stray shots mind you but decapitating the wrong target sticks in the mind. The last few days I've actually been clustering my mechs more to see how often they get hit by stray shots and even when they are close by I have seen stray shots that haven't hit my mechs.

The scenario you describe with the Tbolt and the Quickdraw doesn't even seem a problem to me. The Tbolt blows up if you look at it funny and the Quickdraw was heavily damaged and was not only right in front of the Tbolt but had turned it's vulnerable side to your shooter (since it had no arm and right torso hits that came in on it would have a very high chance to hit the CT). The problem here is you are looking for a problem but not doing anything to validate your methodology beyond saying that it sure seems like a problem because it seems that way to me. In the end though you use terms like "a bunch" and you say "more stray shots generated" and "felt about 80%" but you don't tell us how many stray shots were generated in comparison to the number of shots taken (and the number missed). You keep throwing around numbers like those numbers mean something but add the phrase "felt like".

 

[Blade_mercurial]

And I can tell you that I've been running a game with 2 SL Highlanders (and 2 Gauss) and the number of times I've taken off an opponent's head with stray shots totals 2. I couldn't tell you how many times I've gotten stray shots mind you but decapitating the wrong target sticks in the mind. The last few days I've actually been clustering my mechs more to see how often they get hit by stray shots and even when they are close by I have seen stray shots that haven't hit my mechs.

The scenario you describe with the Tbolt and the Quickdraw doesn't even seem a problem to me. The Tbolt blows up if you look at it funny and the Quickdraw was heavily damaged and was not only right in front of the Tbolt but had turned it's vulnerable side to your shooter (since it had no arm and right torso hits that came in on it would have a very high chance to hit the CT). The problem here is you are looking for a problem but not doing anything to validate your methodology beyond saying that it sure seems like a problem because it seems that way to me. In the end though you use terms like "a bunch" and you say "more stray shots generated" and "felt about 80%" but you don't tell us how many stray shots were generated in comparison to the number of shots taken (and the number missed). You keep throwing around numbers like those numbers mean something but add the phrase "felt like".

I'm choosing these words intentionally, because at the end of the day, I don't have any definitive proof that this is in fact a 'problem', and I'm trying to be honest about that fact. I was aware from the outset that whether stray shot is in a good place or not is entirely subjective. Different players have different perspectives on stuff like this (and some are more mature than others when expressing their views, apparently). I've tried to present the reasons why I don't like the current implementation and possibly how it could be made better, and I don't think there's much more I can do about it. As I said, either HBS takes note of this thread and decides they'll do something with an update down the road, or they will just carry on and focus on other elements of the game.

I do find that the current implementation of Stray Shot in this latest expansion takes the game in an odd direction, however (to my mind). I mean, it has definitely reduced the difficulty of the game (compared to how hard the game was before Urban Warfare was released). In my experience, expansions for computer games tend to ramp up the difficulty of a game given the fact that as the dedicated player-base continues to play, they get better, and thus want greater challenges (at least I do). Again, I realize not everyone is going to feel the same way about it, but I seriously doubt anyone who likes Stray Shot just fine the way it is would even notice if it was 'improved'.

 

[The Shadowhawke]

If you are good enough to engage the enemy in such a way that they are lined up then there is no reason you shouldn't benefit. But from my experience (since we're just going with our general experience and no actual data) I don't get that many stray shots on the enemy nor do I get that many on me (except when/if I'm clustered in that batch of forest to get bulwark activated).

Mostly correct, but as I'm sure we've all witnessed, there's that 'stray ' shot that manages to run off at a weird angle; typically it seems to occur with a heavy weapon; large tonnage AC, Gauss, etc., which is a VERY annoying 'feature' of the game's to-hit mechanism.

(Hey McFly, we're paying you to shoot at the opfor...NOT the clouds...)

Other than that, targets that are in apparent lineup from the shooter should be subject to likelihood of 'overspray' from multi-projectile weapon systems, typically light autocannons, missile racks, machine guns and flamers.

 

[Donvale]

Clustering is actually not nearly as bad as being in line, it's the near misses that seem very likely to stray shot, once the shots scatter past a certain point they tend to scatter quite dramatically, but if you fire a lot of shots at one target quite a few will just miss so another target behind or in front and just off centre is very likely to be collected.

One thing I haven't tried yet that might be interesting to try:
I wonder what happens if I stand very close to a light fast mover and then shoot at something quite a lot further away, this should create a disproportionate amount of obstruction and may collect quite a few shots, could be interesting!

I do think any issues really are restricted to heavy calibre guns hitting highly evasive targets, the fact you can in a repeatable and effective manner effectively nuetralise their evasion and hit them will what is essentially a kill shot is somewhat of an issue, especially in the early game, later one it becomes somewhat a moot point as gunnery approaches perfect and morale is such you can just Precision Shot spam away any annoying Lights.