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grisamentum

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I've wanted to discuss this particular achievement because it seems plausible but nevertheless quite tricky. Given the relaxation of core expiration, it shouldn't even be that difficult anymore, just quite a struggle.

I've put in maybe half a dozen real attempts but just seem to be falling short so I was hoping other people had tips to speed up the middle part.

My game usually goes like this:

1. Secure the peninsula. Basic steps: Ally Mamlukes (no RM), rival QQ for better relations, build up an army. Wait for an opening to attack one of the neighbors, usually attacking Hedjaz with Mamluke support, or if Hedjaz gets engaged against Yemen. Force-vassalize Hedjaz or whichever target is available (annexation if Haasa), then using that vassal, vassalize the other neighbors. Annex asap.

Preparatory steps for next phase: RM+ally Ottomans ASAP during this phase for PU chance, make sure to annex Haasa because otherwise you have no port connected to your capital. Fabricate claims in Basra and Khuzestan.

2. Attack QQ with Ottoman+Mamluke help, taking land to create an Iraqi vassal. If possible, also attack Timurids with help and create Persia vassal. Continue warring them in order to return cores (you can always have a fabricated claim across the Persian Gulf to keep a CB with Timurids.

Preparatory next steps: after I've got all your Iraqi cores back, I don't really need the Mamlukes anymore. Cut relations with them, rival them (the Ottomans will like this), and fabricate claims on Sinai to prepare to cut capital off from Asian provinces.

During phase 2 I'm ready to get the first Idea group. It seems to me if I've gotten a PU with the Ottomans I can go straight in to Religious or Expansion, but if not, I have to take Exploration.

3a. If no PU with Ottomans, start colonizing down East Africa, eventually going around the Cape, until can put a colony on the western coast of Africa or on Brazil and then Westernize.

3b. If PU with Ottomans, use them to attack Crimea (usually by attacking Crimean ally) to seize a province next to Genoa's Black Sea cores (returning those to Genoa if necessary). Get Fleet Basing rights from the Ottomans and core.

4. Westernize asap around miltech 12; hopefully be done before 1560.

At this point I should be done with Expansion group too so I can just walk all over the Chinese tech group (and colonize southeast Asia for extra manpower/basetax, which isn't even overseas!). Using the colonialism CB against Spain I should also be able to get some Aragon (and Naples if possible/necessary) in the Mediterranean and start feeding those back.

Problems:

A. I noticed that when there's a latent core (say Guyenne in France) it might say "expires in 1644" but once it's released a single core as a vassal, the timer drops back to 1544 and all the rest of the cores instantly disappear. Still ok for creating a feedable vassal but not the super-cheap returnfest I was expecting. So still need to get a Guyenne core before 1539 (pre-1544 plus 5 years truce to initiate another war and refresh core timer).

B. If I don't get an Ottoman PU there's no clear path up to Russia. Seems pretty vital to cut off Muscovy/Russia before it expands too far east; that's just years and years of more wars and conversion that would otherwise be 100% mine via colonization. But Ottomans always ally Crimea and getting to Russia first means going through them, usually. Fighting the Ottomans at any point seems like a huge waste of time; I'd rather they expand themselves in Europe and convert things for me (although they seem terrible at doing it and often don't because of their +religious unity idea.)

(An alternative that just occurred to me might be to colonize Siberia first myself by exploring east to Taiwan and then up to Hokkaido. It wouldn't block them as much but I bet I could out-race them and potentially I'd have enough manpower to beat them down from that side.)

C. If Persia manages to gain its own independence from the Timurids first, you might as well restart because the entire thing is going to take too long.

D. Need for lucky PUs in general. Not just the Ottomans, but Algeria/Morocco. Not just needed for the achievement, but Ifni is needed to Unify Islam. Again, without a lucky PU this seems like a huge timesink. Most Muslim countries will eventually be small enough to diplo-vassalize (in fact, there's no reason to fight the Mamlukes after you grab all their Mediterranean provinces so you can connect to your Tripoli diplo-vassal) except the Ottomans and possibly a united Morocco+Algeria (one inevitably conquers the other). Fighting any large Sunni country like those seems like a huge waste of time.

I've picked up a few neat tricks (like cutting off different continent province; makes Mamlukes die much easier) and forcing a super-Spain (Castile+Aragon+Naples) to release "Sicily" (Palermo+Messina+Malta) and then annexing Sicily and forcing it to release Naples (Palermo+Messina but not Malta) and then Aragon (core in Malta) and I can see how to use those against other stuff like Russia, but I'm just not going fast enough.

Any advice or things I missed to speed it all up? Idea groups are Exploration/Expansion/Religious (in whatever order works at the time) followed by a Military one, usually Defensive but sometimes Quality.
 
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Jomini

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B. & C.: QQ can let you get Persia as well. The two Easternmost provinces (Gilan and Mazadan?) are Persia cores, you can release Persia and Iraq in one war. After you've restored provinces to your vassals, QQ is about in the range where you can force vassalize them. That gets you to the border with Golden Horde/Astrakhan. In two wars with the Ottos or Crimea you can give your allies GH territory and then FV them (they often get ganked by just about anyone). From there you need to take down Kazan, but I believe a vassal chain (or integration) of QQ, GH, Kazan will let you just colonize the two blocking provinces.

Other Options for C: Take exploration as your first idea. Get a port on the Med/Black sea (Ramazan, Georgia, and Trebizond can work here). Explore up the Arctic coast of Russia. Your goal is to create a Perm Vassal and get cores in the Arctic. I haven't tried it, but I think you can secure FBR, core on the coast (particularly if you can take the coast before Muscovy takes it) and push inwards. Ultimately you want to get to Perm (coring as you go) and then lay down some blocking colonies. Until Russia starts beating up the Uzbek, you are doing pretty good.

Wait until Russia colonizes the blocking territories, go to war, seize colonies, and hold off the Russians. Kill the natives, finish off the colonies (or sell them to a vassal nearby). Now Russia has to head south via Kazan, Nogai, and Uzbekistan.

Ultimately you want a line running from the northern wasteland to your territory (5 provinces, 2 of them uninhabited). The only alternative is trying to backstab Russia/Muscovy when they are in another war and getting them totally hosed. Getting a Russian vassal = great. A very rare shot I want to try is PU'ing Russia. Wait until Russia has no heir and is unlikely to get one. Convert to Shi'ite via war. Induce Sunni zealot rebels in the provinces next to Russia/Muscovy. Sell them the provinces with rebels. Go to war & fund the rebels. Break Russia to Sunni (let the rebels control sieges, do not win the war before Russia goes down Sunni). RM & claim throne (you may need to sell cores back to Russia to up your standing enough). Claim throne. Now you have a dynasty member on the throne. Next time they lack an heir, claim throne & use the CB to force a PU. This can work even when you and Russia are huge, I think, but you do have a lot of work cut out for you to be able to beat down Russia in a protracted war, help rebels break their country, and then repair relations immediately to get the RM & claim throne (high BROT is huge). I haven't done it, but I think you might be able to take out a huge Russia this way. As an added bonus you can use the Russian Zerglings in your wars against Europe.

D. Morocco or Algeria: When one is dead, take a province with its core, release it as a vassal. Then fight to return cores (you can do this quite late in the game now, I think). After returning cores you can just take provinces & sell them to the vassal. Eventually you can either FV the free state (low AE) or keep taking & selling provinces (faster, generally).

Ottomans: either vassalize Byzantium or take a province in war and release so you can eventually force a lot of territory back - keeping Byz alive as a vassal is great Cyprus, Rhodes, Corfu, and Naxos all tend to revolt to it, likewise they keep cores even in wrong culture/religion places). Better, you can back rebels & beat down the Ottos until the provinces defect - if the Ottos are slow to convert (low piety & no missionary adviser), you can revolt back a lot of the Orthodox land with Orthodox zealot funding & a really long war (which you can then use to cut down the Ottos further). Your other option is to try to contain them early. If you can ally and hold the Syria -> QQ -> Georgia line (or if you can get an early Otto alliance and eat a no-CB declaration: Ramazan -> Dulkadier -> Trebizond) that stops them from getting that big. Particularly if you are willing to sabotage any wars in Europe by allying, losing battles and declaring war on people who also border the Ottos (but preferably not you - like Poland-Lithuania if you can manage to fabricate a claim on their Black Sea ports from across the water or like Hungary/Austria if you can fabricate across the Adriatic from your holdings in Italy). If you can get enough people dogpiling them, they might even start shedding territory. Assuming you grow big enough to take over their wars (and you drag them into enough they don't start too many too often), you can keep the Ottos confined to the Orthodox Balkans, the islands, and their starting land.

The other option. Ally the Ottomans and then try your hardest to get them a crapton of AE. Declare on Hungary, let them win sieges, give them a bunch of provinces at 15 AE each. Then have them take land from Poland. And then Venice. Once they have a coalition against them - join it and then use that lovely CB to rip them apart. You need to big enough to control the coalition (so the Ottos can only make peace with you). I haven't tried it, but getting in on an anti-OE coalition sould be insanely strong.

Other shots: You can Westernize just as well with a border with Portugal or Spain. Taking Casablanca can let you westernize if you can keep Portugal in North Africa (you need to kill rebels and maybe fight Morocco). Or if you are ballsy you can just jump to defending Grenada and taking land there. Early exploration and Western Sea access can let you do a lot of stuff quickly. You can generate early CBs on the Iberians by protecting Grenada or Morocco. You can sometimes get an isolated war with Portugal (no England) if you enforce peace via Morocco.

You can sometimes get a lot of return from going to China early and taking a province, turning it into a vassal and then hoping China implodes with a peasant war. There is a lot of land to be had there, but it seems like crapshoot if China breaks to rebels or not. If China does get into dire straights, backing rebels to fill out your OPM vassal is extremely cost effective.

You can sometimes get some mileage for converting vassals before you release them: Persia as Sunni may or may not be worth it (though with the rules for 1.4 I think it will be). Converting makes the vassal less useful for selling provinces - but sometimes the AI will start doing up conversions.

It can be worth it to collapse into a different government, Iqta is pretty pathetic. Despotic Monarchy saves a lot of DMP and -1 RR is almost always good. Constitutional monarchy is very good for a mass vassal strategy. If you are going to collapse to rebels - do it before you westernize.
 

grisamentum

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Yeah I have thought about switching over to a different government type... the problem I've had is that with all the Tolerance of the True Faith bonuses + various nationalities, I tend to get nationalist rebels (or Shia zealots), not peasants.

When's the best moment to do it? I'd guess after integrating some other Bedouin vassals, before integrating Iraq/Syria? Then drive up war exhaustion?

It would be a huge advantage to be able to rotate between Noble Republic and then Despotic->Constitutional Monarchy (and back to Noble Republic via bashing an OPM). Iqta isn't bad early from the vassal income bonus and guaranteed heirs but eventually I need a way to guarantee good rulers and catch up in ideas and techs after westernizing.
 

TheBloke

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Regarding the cores disappearing on release. The timer is changing from 200 years to 100 years and if the new 100 year time is in the past relative to time of release, they disappear at the end of the current month.

However, the timer will be reset if you are at war with the current owner.

Therefore an alternative to getting the cores before 1544 is to take it and release it whenever, but do so at the beginning of a month. Then DOW the holder of the other cores before that month is out. You've now got another 100 years to actually get all those cores from that holder.

Only works for one core holder, so if the Guyenne cores are spread amongst multiple nations, you can only extend the timers for the cores held by one holder (can't DOW twice within a single month.)
 

grisamentum

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Regarding the cores disappearing on release. The timer is changing from 200 years to 100 years and if the new 100 year time is in the past relative to time of release, they disappear at the end of the current month.

However, the timer will be reset if you are at war with the current owner.

Therefore an alternative to getting the cores before 1544 is to take it and release it whenever, but do so at the beginning of a month. Then DOW the holder of the other cores before that month is out. You've now got another 100 years to actually get all those cores from that holder.

Only works for one core holder, so if the Guyenne cores are spread amongst multiple nations, you can only extend the timers for the cores held by one holder (can't DOW twice within a single month.)

Aha. Thanks, that could help.
 

unmerged(195685)

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I don't know if you've seen parrot66's Jihad, a Najd AAR, but it appears to offer a slightly faster opening than you're currently using, which could shave a few years off the time.

That opening pretty much requires re-rolling your starting generals, which may not be your cup of tea. Marching across North Africa is also easier than you might think, since Algiers is often allied with the Ottomans. Unless you're crazy lucky and get a PU with them you'll be trying to trash the ottomans long before you westernize, and it's pretty easy to carpet siege and scoop out Algiers in the meantime. Westernization also doesn't have to be a very high priority-if you aren't getting borders with venice/genoa/portugal/spain via conquest by the 1550s, then you're probably already moving too slowly. Either way, the AE shenanigans in 1.3 makes any kind of meaningful european expansion a pretty long affair, which is why I canned my attempt.
 

grisamentum

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That's interesting; I'll take a look at it. I figure AE is going to be a problem, yeah. But I think I can abuse Jake's OPM release strategy in order to kill a lot of AE (and shift governments).

Amusing sidenote, my most recent restart had a bizarre opening in which Sunni zealots took over QQ (after they had a pretender revolt in the first 2 months. GG hordes.) and Armenia took over AQ. The Mamlukes refuse to join a war against Hedjaz, and nobody is attacking anybody. The Timurids already conquered Chagatai and are guaranteeing QQ.

2013-12-08_00001.jpg


Edit: and the weirdness continues... Hedjaz allied with both Oman and Haasa so they came in on the war once I got the Mamlukes to join:

2013-12-08_00002.jpg


Could be a pretty efficient start, actually.
 
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grisamentum

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going to make an aar thread out of this start tonight, actually.

It's going weird as the Timurids are huge (before 1450 they full annexed chagatai...) and they've warned me. mamlukes are in a peasant revolt because i overused them against hedjaz and qq. yemen migrated deep in to east africa.
 

roman566

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Nice plan but I think it's to slow. Relying on alliances and waiting for the enemy to be weak will waste too much time.

eu4_29.jpg

My vassals:
Byzantium
Iraq
Persia
Georgia
Serbia
Tunisia
Baluchistan
 
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