Strategy and opening moves for Qara Qoyunlu

[delpiero1234]

So I am a bit stuck in my game. It currently is September 1458. I annexed Al Hasa, Armenia and Trebizond, which I cannot core for some reason even though it neighbors my vassal. I have Georgia and Najd as my vassal (also took a few provinces from Najad and force converted them to shiite). Oman is my only ally but they kinda suck because they refused to join most of my wars.

So why am I stuck? The Ottomans rivaled and can only pray that they don't DOW me. The Mamluks rivaled me, too and are allied to Hedjaz, which I was planing on conquering next. The Timurids have a gigantic army of 53000 (I only have 25000). I thought about declaring war on Crimea or Golden Horde but both are allied with the Ottomans and others.
So I cannot expand into any area right now. My ruler and heir suck (2/2/4 & 2/1/0). Not sure what I should do. I don't see any way to leave the annoying Horde government any time soon..

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The horde government is the most fun one in the game.

You have only a few options:

1. Fight someone other than the Ottomans. If you're skillful with scorched earth and very careful, you can win without flattening your manpower. These wars take a long time though.
2. You're probably at an idea group by now. If you have exploration, go play in Africa.
3. Bypass Timmy with ships and invade/vassal into India. Surely, someone needs a loan or will get angry at being embargoed!

Horde government is the best or close IMO. It's unfortunate that it's tied to an awful set of units + penalties. Using enemy cores to recruit good units as a Nomad and taking advantage of horde bonuses is truly fearsome. On top of that, you get to manipulate heirs on purpose, never have regency (pretty important), and play with dynasties due to being able to kill heirs deliberately and farm prestige.

 

[delpiero1234]

1. I'll try that
2. Unfortunatly I am not at an idea group by now. My ruler sucks and I am only at 634 ADM. At the moment ADM tech 4 costs 1018.
3. Excellent idea! Using the loans to fabricate a CB in idea sounds like an excellent idea. Thank you!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Alright, I'm trying the opening myself. I'll type what I do as I go.

1. Day 0 declare on Haasa, improve relations with Ottos, split 6 troops towards Haasa with ruler attached as general, 12 towards Georgia. Also hire a military advisor and train 3 cavalry in base 8 tax provinces.
2. Declare on Georgia too and just siege them. If they move into your borders, attack.
3. Crimea and GH dogpile on Georgia; we let them siege out a province . Ottos are in on this war too. They get a "subsidy".
4. We just full annex Haasa.
5. On Sept 20, 1446, we secure a royal marriage with the Ottomans.
6. Aq Qoyunulu is also at war with Georgia. Ottos and Crimea end it. Time for a rival + support 10 armenian rebels + DoW through inherited war .
7. At the same time, on June 29, 1447, the Ottomans offer an alliance. Those war subsidies, guarantee, and improved relations paid off!
8. Armenian rebels are sieging that province, I will siege the other two while Aq sieges Georgia. Perfect. Apparently, Aq keeps sieging Georgia, so I betray the rebels and occupy all their provinces, picking them + their units up without really fighting anything but rebels, which were friendly and sitting on a stack of 20 of my units when I stopped their support...
9. In 1450, it's time for Najd. I note they're allied with Adal. This might be interesting. Let's see if Yemen will open borders with me. Yep, Adal joined, which means we can fight them . I head down there with 10 guys while carpeting Najd. I lock their 6 guys in their capitol, constantly hesitating on attacking a 1 stack because I threaten to reinforce it, and siege them down into a vassal.
10. Hedjaz piles on Najd, which is sort of inconvenient. I'm more than a match for Hedjaz, but don't want to lose my alliance with the Ottomans to a dishonored call.
11. While sitting waiting for Hedjaz to end its war, Najd has a peasant revolt on my occupied province. Paying .1 ducat/month is enough to make them friendly. Good times.

Now at 1454 and allied to Ottomans, with Georgia, Aq Qoyunulu, Najd, and Adal as vassals. I was going to stop here, but I realized yet another opportunity .

12. Enforce peace on Yemen attacking Oman. They refuse . I get just under 100% war score despite my 1 cog, because of defender occupying war goal lolol. Vassal.

At 7/4 relations, it's time to start annexing. Heir sucks, so we'll use the no war/truce thing to kill him if at all possible, then probably dogpile on mamluks with the ottomans. Maybe I'll declare with them, let them take separate peace with infantry stacks on their occupied provinces, then assault them down.

Not a bad start. We'll see how it goes on.

 

[Leninade]

Figured I would find an angry bunny in this thread.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Figured I would find an angry bunny in this thread.

Nah, aside from the somewhat amusing "QQ" initials they're not really a hard start. Ottos eventually dropped the alliance, but by that point I'd fed Persia every core it had in existence...and mamluks took land off them which was very surprising.

 

[Golladan]

and mamluks took land off them which was very surprising.

whaaaaaatt??

 

[AndreasPhokas]

Good job with your qara start. I did one as well, cept I tried the orthodox route, wasn't hard actually. Released Iraq/Persia ASAP then conquered Georgia in the first war, then got Armenia and Trebizond. Got religious rebels to spawn, boom orthodox horde. Got a PU with Uzbek prior to it though. Took a couple brutal wars but I managed to form Persia. An orthodox Persia....yep, I left Iraq go just for the heck of it and im going to let my Uzbek PU break so I have more of a challenge.

Getting Circassia no matter what nation you are in that region is huge.

 

[delpiero1234]

Alright,
5. On Sept 20, 1446, we secure a royal marriage with the Ottomans.

How did you get a RM with the Ottomans? Did you improve relations with them?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

How did you get a RM with the Ottomans? Did you improve relations with them?

I said that I did. From day 0. I improved relations, guaranteed them, and when they were in war I gave them a subsidy. This is enough to get RM if they're not hostile/rival already.

They eventually broke the alliance, but by the point they did so I was pretty much done feeding vassal Persia's cores off the Timurids. I am now going to cede the rest of Timurids (sitting on overextension for the moment) myself and release them as a big vassal, too. Baluchistan made it easier by ripping a chunk out of them.

Also, you can release Persia from day 0 since you begin with 2 of their cores, so if you see Persian rebels about to flip provinces off Timmy, just create a vassal on the spot so they go to your vassal.

My game is really weird though. The Ottos must have been depleted from Europe (they did get into a war vs Castille & co). The Mamluks ripped territory off them, and are allied to Oman, the only remaining free nation in the area other than me. They're also allied to someone else inconvenient and ate Tripoli, so they're a bigger threat to me than the Ottomans now, not that I'll care much about spanking them down a notch once I'm finished up with Timmy. I'm still in Nomad, but we're in the tech 7 range, and I have mostly cavalry and a big, big vassal + several small ones backing my large forces. AI is stupid, Mamluks will enter my land, and I'll get horde bonuses. Then I'll cut off Cairo from their Middle East holdings, turning them into "colonies", making chunk-annexing --> vassal release easy. The only big issue here is that I want to stop Muscovy, too, and they're starting the process of rounding the bend. Finishing Timmy means a fight with Sibir + another horde, so I might have to colony break Muscovy + buy out to slow them down, then try to vassal --> annex Sibir. Hopefully the Ottomans hold out a bit (that really does sound odd).

 

[delpiero1234]

Oh yea I somehow missed you saying this. Sorry!

I started a new game as QQ and this time it's going much better. The Horde Causa Belli is awesome because you can vassalize countries for 0 dip power. I don't think non-Horde nations can do that (unless they have the subjugate cause belli against a certain nation). I vassalized Najd and their ally Adal in one war for 0 dip

What's your first national idea?
Also the Timurids took a mission to vassalize me! I hope they won't try it but this time the Ottos are my ally so I should be safe

 

[TheMeInTeam]

My first national idea was diplomatic: Easier alliances, faster annexation of vassals, 2 vassals annexed simultaneously, and more vassal carrying capacity. I took religious 2nd, but was town between that and either exploration or expansion. The problem for me was that I was annexing vassals and Shiite is a rare religion, so to keep up the unity (and with low legitimacy from no child can be khan, I needed some unity) while converting Sunni and Orthodox provinces in hostile culture, I needed the extra missionary + 3% strength.

Now, however, I will not get expansion in time to block Muscovy with colonies, unless I declare on them to stall them by destroying their colony and buying out a few times. The other alternative would be if I can somehow beat them outright, but with a war of aggression in the early 1500's that's going to be hard. A conquest CB on their colony would be much more palatable, but I'm not sure I can both vassal and annex Sibir in time.

I love the diplo + expansion combo though. The diprep is very powerful and you get a colonist you can throw around a little too. I'm holding off on annexing Persia and then insta-forming it until I see more of the African East coast...Ajuuran is a vassal now also, but I don't get sight of adjacent until I annex and wait a bit. Well, Persia's extra units are part of the reason, too.

 

[delpiero1234]

Ok I am going to expand into Africa later on, too.
Diplomatic as first idea makes sense.

How long does it take for the event to pop up that kills my heir? I have been 5 years at peace and I can't stay much longer at peace because I want to conquer some neighbors.. but my heir sucks so much that I will wait no matter how long it takes.

Edit: The event finally popped up and I got rid of the heir

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The event triggers very, very quickly as long as you're not at war and don't have a truce. Five years is about what it takes for a truce to wear off . Use that time to annex vassals and whatnot, and try to time it during a period you need some manpower recovery.

 

[delpiero1234]

Well I just entered a new war and immediately after going to war I got a new heir that isn't that much better. 0/4/3. I guess I'll be taking a diplomatic idea first, too..

 

[delpiero1234]

Unfortunately The Mamluks are kicking the ass of the Ottos who are still my ally.. They have completely destroyed their navy and most of their army..

I don't think I ever saw The Mamluks kicking ass in any EU IV game I've played.

 

[Ender ASLAN]

Best opportunity of qq is they are very close to both africa and europe. I generally dont build a land bridge to these continents to get colony advantage while coring(%50 less adm point).

(My advisor preference is ADM: -3 nat unrest DIP: +2 reputation MIL: +%10 moral or manpower modifier.
dont use the leader as commander.)

Thus I DOW on aq qoyunlu and their probable allies karaman and ramazan, dont annex karaman, but i annex ramazan and I take içel. !!! CORE ICEL WHILE at war with dulkadir(Yes DOW on them too). If i find the opportunuty to DOW on trabzon before Ottomans, i give trabzon to karaman ofc after annexing aq qoyunlu and giving erzincan to karaman so i stop my own land bridge to europe in north anatolia. and we will stop it with georgia in caucass.

Get allience with Poland
(My general army structure is almost full cavalry (%50 merc if possible) at the beginning, later infantry %50 full merc, %50 cavalry full standart.)

secondly I DOW on tajikistan(just for mazandabaran province as it is a trade center in my capital) and annex them, later shirvan, diplo annex.

In the parallel, generally i go for arabian peninsula provinces: Najd is one of the best vassals becuz of their high religious capability, so I vassalize them with war.
DOW on hedjaz if not allied to memluks, oman and yemen, feed them to najd, later annex najd.

As Ottomans couldnt get anatolia they will hate you but as you are allied with poland they will afraid to dow on you and otto will go for balkans and probably hungary.
Dow on ottomans when they are at war and take anatolian seaside provinces like teke sugla etc to decrease their naval limit. Hudavendigar is the Key province while you r at war with Otto : you can reach both kocaeli and biga in a proper time while they pass thru istanbul to kocaeli or edirne to biga.
Poland is going to kick otto in balkans and you will win the war, dont try to pass to balkans. give province to poland and karaman if you r going to have a high overextension.

next is memluks
as you got the arabian peninsula, you will be very close to sina suez and al-quds and stop memluks on these provinces, let it be a defence war on these provinces. carpet siege suria area with 1 unit per province and keep the army near suez channel area. YOU HAVE THE POWER OF FREE REPLENISH ON MERCS, USE IT VERY WISELY, keep the manpower high at all cost, so timur will be busy with other things in east.

upto 1520, i mostly got memluks, almost full anatolia, full arabian peninsula, im neighbor to austria and poland in balkans(got many provinces from otto in balkans also). and got 5 or 6 provinces including azov in north. persia is going to declare freedom soon and im in prepartion to carpet siege persia right after their freedom.
take your provinces wisely. try to be neighbor to all your enemy provinces thus you can see their army locations. persia doesnt have a chance against you as you will be fighting in mountains. use mercs ofc.

I national focused on ADM, as im going to need adm for coring, stability and ideas.
first idea was influence, as i got many diplo point stocked. but it could be very wise decision pick up exploration, i missed it : (

then at all cost, humanist ideas !!
YOU ARE PLAYING IN MIDDLE EAST!! you have no other choice... you are full of different cultures, religions. and you are conquering many provinces.

I didnt try a orthodox horde but it can be a very wise decision for holy emperorship. for now im sunni, I converted the religion to sunni in rebellion.
most challenging things are unrest and death of leader.


as a summary i think qq is bug of this game:
support free mercs
colonizeable africa and europe later very easily connected.(I recommend after gov change)
-5 years of nationalism (which is - unrest on conqed provinces.)(-10 with humanism also)
%50 land force limit modifier.
%50 manpower bonus.
diplo point free sue for peace
permanent casus belli to everyone around you.

good luck all

 

[bbqftw]

holy necro

I want to leave the nomad tech group as soon as possible because it sucks

It's actually interesting reading this because nomad is probably the strongest tech group in 1.17

 

[El_Cid_]

holy necro


It's actually interesting reading this because nomad is probably the strongest tech group in 1.17

Because of the horde CB?

 

[SupSha]

Immediately DOW Shiravan and Tabarestan, their COTs will handle your money situation forever. Persia is the best non-European trade node in the game.

Accept Sunni zealot demands and then Shia zealots to gain heretic tolerance, massively boosting your religious unity and lowering unrest. Convert the Coptics.

Then do whatever, you can form a godly Persia with OP Horde ideas pretty easily (80% Cavalry ratio and +20% Cavalry Combat ability makes Ottomans cry). Or go north first, convert to Orthodox and reform into eastern tech. Though the most important expansion route is into Samarkand as this frees up the Chinese/Indian trade money so you can keep it all for yourself.