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darthfanta

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A lot of Far Eastern historical and literary material about wars generally depicts an army having both a general in control of an army as well as a strategist. What I want to know is that shouldn't the general be in charge of the same roles as a strategist?
 

darthfanta

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Strategist is chief of stuff in modern terms and general is well, an actual commander?
I see. So the main responsibility of the strategist in the Asian sense is responsible for logistics,advising the commander and mediation between different officers only?So basically, the strategist is more or less just the second command of the army? There's also the problem that these 'strategists' quite a lot of the time don't really have a military rank and are more or less civilian like Zhuge Liang.
 

profxyz

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It's probably the same thing that happens in most pre-modern armies.

The state/monarch appoints a certain general to lead the army. Of course, the general can't be expected to handle everything himself, so the state also makes provision for the general to assemble a temporary staff around him to advise on military matters, but leaves the picking of the staff to the general. If the general feels inadequate in his military knowledge, he may decide to choose a strategist to be on his staff and advise him on certain matters - and he might well give him authority to issue orders on his behalf. The general can pick any person he wants for his staff, so it really doesn't matter if the strategist is a civilian, a family relation, whatever.

What goes for generals also goes for monarchs. So Liu Bei, for example, will also have his own 'staff' to co-ordinate the movements of various armies and strategy at headquarters. He also gets to pick who gets to be on his 'staff' - including a strategist, regardless of position in society. This strategist may well be authorized to give orders on his behalf. Zhuge Liang held this position - but whatever orders he gave were Liu Bei's orders, not his own. This was made rather clear in the (fictional) battle of Bowang in the ROTK where, despite giving the commanding seal to Zhuge Liang, it is Liu Bei's order to Guan Yu/Zhang Fei that silences their objections.

So no, it's wrong to think of a strategist as a 'second-in-command' of the army. In actual terms, he's probably more like a mere advisor + conveyer of his commander's authority and will. Any independent moves on his part can only be made because of the implicit knowledge that what he says, will also be what his commander agrees with.

An example of a real second-in-command would have been the actual Battle of Bowang, where Cao Cao expressly gave the task of destroying Liu Bei to Xiahou Dun with Li Dian and Yue Jin. So here Xiahou Dun would be the primary wielder of authority in this army, deriving from Cao Cao's orders, but Li Dian and Yue Jin would also have their own authority independent of Xiahou Dun, again deriving from Cao Cao's orders.

The structure of power in battle gets a bit complicated for Imperial China, because its large bureaucracy allows for monarchs to nominally 'be in command' even if they are thousands of miles away in another country. At the Battle of Hefei in 214, for example, the titular commander would be Cao Cao (who was in the other side of China at the time), exercising his authority through his civilian representative Xue Ti, who would have been the actual commander who then, in line with Cao Cao's wishes, delegates authority for the task to the military generals: Zhang Liao, Li Dian, and Yue Jin; they would then order their subordinates - for example, Hao Zhao - into positions.

This picture doesn't even considering the possible overlapping jurisdictions between the fortress commanders (Zhang Liao et al) and the regional field army commander (Xiahou Dun), though since Cao Cao's authority was expressedly conveyed through Xue Ti, it's quite likely that he'd be able to (nominally) command Xiahou Dun's army as well.
 
Last edited:

darthfanta

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So then, why does a ruler sometimes designate both a commander and a strategist for an army?If the strategist's advise are so top notch, then why doesn't the ruler just designate the strategist as the commander of the army instead?
 

Nick Giordano

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So then, why does a ruler sometimes designate both a commander and a strategist for an army?If the strategist's advise are so top notch, then why doesn't the ruler just designate the strategist as the commander of the army instead?
Maybe because they're not nobility?

(just a guess)
 

Henry IX

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Because they are not pollitically reliable. Becasue they lack the personal charisma to command an army. Because they cannot command the loyalty of the soldiers (eg a foreigner). Because they lack the other skills a commander needs (e.g. logistics) etc. There are a huge number of reasons why. Even if the general is a great stratagist themselves they may want someone on staff to bounce ideas off and cross check plans with.
 

profxyz

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So then, why does a ruler sometimes designate both a commander and a strategist for an army?If the strategist's advise are so top notch, then why doesn't the ruler just designate the strategist as the commander of the army instead?

a) The ruler doesn't always designate the strategist - sometimes the general will get one himself for his 'staff'.
b) The ability to advise an army isn't the same thing as the ability to command an army. Most strategists, being civilians, would suffer the same problem that Zhuge Liang initially had (at least in the fictional ROTK) - nobody would listen to him.
c) Basic politics - giving command based on military rank, favoring political allies, etc.
 

darthfanta

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a) The ruler doesn't always designate the strategist - sometimes the general will get one himself for his 'staff'.
b) The ability to advise an army isn't the same thing as the ability to command an army. Most strategists, being civilians, would suffer the same problem that Zhuge Liang initially had (at least in the fictional ROTK) - nobody would listen to him.
c) Basic politics - giving command based on military rank, favoring political allies, etc.
So in real life, most strategies wouldn't have come from the strategist right? One of the most unbelievable things in asian literature was how every tactic or strategy seems to have come from the strategist while the commander of the army himself seems to be only involved in brawls or melee.

Additionally, so the position of strategist in some cases more like the Chief of Staff where the nominal commander only gained his position because of politics not through merit and is there to be the de facto commander?
 

profxyz

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So in real life, most strategies wouldn't have come from the strategist right? One of the most unbelievable things in asian literature was how every tactic or strategy seems to have come from the strategist while the commander of the army himself seems to be only involved in brawls or melee.

Additionally, so the position of strategist in some cases more like the Chief of Staff where the nominal commander only gained his position because of politics not through merit and is there to be the de facto commander?

Well the degree to which the strategist 'matters' is probably exaggerated in Chinese literature, especially with ROTK's worship of Zhuge Liang. But at other times it's very possible that the strategist thought up the plan. Alternatively, the strategist could have acted like an 'advisor' and modified the original ruler's plan. It does really depend on how you yourself grade the 'intelligence' of a commander and whether he could have thought up his strategies without help.

As for your second question... yes, the strategist could possess authority like a Chief of Staff or even a general, depending on how well he could trace his authority up to 'higher powers' (i.e. a monarch or Grand Commander). He could also be pretty useless and just there to nod politely and agree with the commander. The influence a strategist wields really does depend on how capable he is of exercising his stated powers.

By 'politics' I mainly mean the politics of rank. It's generally very bad form to have a person of lower rank command a person of higher rank, and not only because of the possibility that the higher-ranking commander won't listen to the lower-ranking one in battle. Also, as mentioned in my earlier post on Hefei there can also be distinctions between 'fortress' commanders and 'field army commanders' - so it would be good strategy to have a non-military administrator be the nominal commander of a battle and thus have the power to co-ordinate both armies. I don't deny that there are also much stupider reasons for commanders to not be chosen on merit.
 

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Every clan I'm in that is run properly has a CinC and 2iC that stand over everyone else as essential equals (with the final say in the hands of one of course). One will take the role of a tactician/commander/dirty work deal. The other will focus on the big picture.

In Command and Conquer TA, I twice led number 1 alliances for a long period of time. I would CinC and manage diplomatic relations and focus on the big picture. My 2iC would be the battlefield commander and lead "liberation" operations. When we properly coordinated, we could attack at just the right pace, with just the right amount of men, and implode the target and incorporate much of the target's men into our alternate alliances.

In this case the CInC was the strategist and the 2iC the general, but either way works as long as the people work. As our clan grew, we added a 3iC to do basically our managerial dirty work, which eventually grew into an officer corps.
 

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A lot of Far Eastern historical and literary material about wars generally depicts an army having both a general in control of an army as well as a strategist. What I want to know is that shouldn't the general be in charge of the same roles as a strategist?

Western armies were often like this too. There would be a high ranking noble in overall command for political reasons, and often as not control of the strictly military aspects of the campaign would be in the hands of a veteran campaigner - one who was often no more than a knight, or other lower ranking noble, but who had many years (even many decades) of practical experience organizing and leading armies in the field.