Strategies for Norway in 1.8

[Alech]

What I came here to say though is that I expect the "use vassal CB" thing to be nerfed soon, for instance, don't release Finland in your war with Sweden if you can siege them down, just release all but one (maybe a core in the middle of Finland), then when the time comes, you get a cb for re-conquest that gives you 25% AE!!! I was able to use that to completely annex Sweden with basically no coalition against me (and due to my previous war it was only 96% OE.

"Don't release Finland in your war with Sweden (...), just release all but one" What do you mean?

 

[Frungy78]

The reconquest gives you 25% AE (75% reduction) for reconquest of cores, AND full annexation. So by making Finland your vassal minus 1 province remaining in Sweden, you can use the reconquest CB the next war and annex the reset of Sweden (assuming less than 100% warscore) for a pittance of AE.

 

[Dr. B]

Got time to play another Norway game with 1.8.1_beta. Having learned from first game I gave autonomy to all conquered provinces.

Result: No rebels, massive conquest spree. Expanding is easier than ever before, it is 1490 and all of Sweden and Denmark is absorbed. Also large Finland and Novgorod vassals, Muscovy is broken.

Some observations:
-AE is pitiful for conquering low basetax countries, so you can just consume Scandinavia without much consequences...
-...as long as diplomats are kept busy increasing relations whenever possible.
-Trade is king, and Lübeck is the place to trade. There is more money than in previous versions.
-Give autonomy to conquered provinces = no rebel problems

-Vassals takes a long time to integrate unless you focus on it (Diplomatic/Influence ideas). you get 10 years og -3 diplo rep afterwards. Norway after independence has red legitimacy giving negative diplo rep as well. So plan to only keep and integrate a few vassals (like Finland), just directly conquer the rest. Integrating Novgorod will be slow, I will not grow it too large.

-On idea groups, Exploration is still what you want for idea #1 or #2, depending on what your monarch is good at. You dont need it first unless you are swimming in diplo points. I got a decent military one, so took Quantity first and Exploration second (will take Religious third to convert better to protestant and deal with the heretic scum). Quantity because of the fantastic manpower boost at start, Norway needs it so bad, but other military groups are also an option. (Had I got a good admin guy, I would have taken Religious first.)

 

[Golradaer]

It's now 1593 in my game and a lot has happened.

I integrated Novgorod and converted almost all of the provinces to Protestantism. I've had to put down a couple of patriot revolts in the process, but my force limit is now over 100 and my manpower pool is 120k, so this isn't an issue at all. Defender of the Faith was enough for the conversion, along with the basic +conversion rate decisions.

Surprisingly, I managed to win the first Religious League war. Only problem was Bohemia became Emperor. I really should've been more careful by spamming alliances/royal marriage/guarantee/improve relations with electors to ensure that I was chosen. And once this happened, the Religious Leagues were still in effect with Protestantism as the defending religion so the Protestant electors that were part of the league had an extra +200 toward Bohemia for the purposes of imperial voting. Anyway, the second Religious League war happened only a few years later, made up of some of the Catholic powers that hadn't joined the first war and Bavaria/Portugal which had been on the Protestant side in the first war -- the major Catholic participants of the first war weren't involved initially due to the peace treaty and joined in after it'd been going for several years. It was a fairly easy win and Protestantism is now the official religion of the HRE.

Bohemia awarded me a lot of territory during the peace agreements during this second Religious League war, which was a mixed bag, but I did manage to get Cadiz and Corsica for the naval supplies, and Gelre for access to the English Channel trade node. In my next war, I fought a coalition of minors and seized all of Pomerania, Utrecht, Danzig (separate war), and gave Finland the rest of the Livonian Order (which was Courland now because I forced them to convert to Protestantism earlier).

I moved my trade port to the English Channel and set my fleet of 150 light ships to protect trade, and now I'm richer than everyone other than Castile (175 ducats/month for them, 150 for me, GB/Portugal/Ottomans are at 115) -- I'm still collecting in Lubeck because I have 50% of the trade even without a fleet, and in total I make 100 ducats from trade. Collecting in the English Channel is fantastic, and I think everyone who plays Norway should aim to do this by 1600 when NA/SA/Africa start sending significant amounts of money trade to the end nodes. Mainly because trade power in Lubeck doesn't propagate to the colonies via the "downstream trade" modifier, while English Channel and the other end nodes also give you extra trade power in the Caribbean/Ivory Coast, etc. Due to my massive colonies, trade company in South Africa (which I took from the Spanish) and exploration+quantity, my naval force limit is 360 which I haven't even had the time/money to max out (GB has 250, Castile 230, Portugal 220 -- and this is including the 50% AI Bonus from Hard AI). I only have Utrecht/Gelre+trade fleet in the node, but I still control 48% of the trade and make 58 ducats there (GB makes 45). Another great part of collecting in the English Channel is I've decimated Burgundy's income: they only make 15 ducats from trade there, where previously they were making 40.

My alliance with Great Britain really paid off because I received a PU with them around 1585. Now I don't have to worry about their colonies with naval supplies, and I can let their heavy ship fleet fight my battles against the Iberians.

After my conquest spree in northern Germany, a coalition formed including Poland/Lithuania (broken alliance and they wanted Danzig), Hungary, Austria, Burgundy, and some minors. My allies were Bohemia, Great Britain, and a couple of minors. We were outnumbered something like 3:1 in the European theater. Fortunately, I had 100k troops under my direct control, so I wiped stacks when I could and otherwise played defensively and let attrition take its toll. Quantity+holding Russia allowed me to maintain a large fighting force more easily than my enemies, apart from Burgundy and its 60-70 mercs -- I ended up sitting my stacks near Cologne/Utrecht and wiping Burgundy's reinforcements while I waited for the other enemies to move a stack out of position. Great Britain initially landed troops in Italy/Austria which just resulted in getting wiped, but once I began fighting in Burgundy itself, they landed 40-50k there and I could finally coordinate with them. Well, the war ended in a white peace after 6 years, but I count that as a major win given the situation.

I plan to spend the next ten years playing nice in the HRE so I can get a shot at Emperor, so I'll probably beat down Nogai and take the Russian culture provinces they captured from Muscovy. These last 30 years have seen some really fun wars!

 

[Dr. B]

It's now 1593 in my game and a lot has happened.

...

I am quite impressed, this is good with hard/AI bonuses. I see you use many strategies that are the same I use based on playing Norway many times.
Although I have never entered the empire, I wonder if it is worth the hassle, I like to simply take to the offensive at once.

As I want to play out my own game (on normal, sadly), I wonder how you find the colonial game now. Before, I could with very active colony stealing and a bit of luck manage to lock out all the main colonizers. Now that is impossible I think, so where would it be best to focus the colonists? And you use Expansion instead of Religious as #1 adm group, good for the colonies but have you not had much trouble with the heretic provinces?

 

[Denkt]

My Norway game:
Richest country in the world, only taken two provinces from Denmark is the limit of my conquest in europe.
Soon Im at India, Kong is gone and my trade company in that area do give me a free merchant.
My trade income is around 86 ducats a month, my trade efficiency around 100%.
Have finished trade, quality and expansion and is running all 3 policies at the same time and Im getting ahead of time penalty on all 3 techs.
Have around 30k soldiers, most of them mercs over my force limit.
Still earning like 20 ducats per month but then Im not using uber advisors.

 

[Golradaer]

Although I have never entered the empire, I wonder if it is worth the hassle, I like to simply take to the offensive at once.

I don't think joining the empire is necessary, but it does give some nice bonuses and I always find the internal HRE games to be fun. Apart from the basic -unrest and -techcost effects of joining up, you'll get bonuses as reforms are passed and if your religion becomes dominant you get +prestige/legitimacy.

As I want to play out my own game (on normal, sadly), I wonder how you find the colonial game now. Before, I could with very active colony stealing and a bit of luck manage to lock out all the main colonizers. Now that is impossible I think, so where would it be best to focus the colonists?

For colonizing, after the initial one in Newfoundland I jumped down to the Caribbean to pick up the 6 or 7 islands that Portugal hadn't grabbed yet, then I focused on taking the entire Chesapeake region and filling out the rest of coastal Canada. I then went for "strategic" regions, like South Africa, and Colombia (it's jungle, but a chunk of provinces are part of the Caribbean trade node and it has a central position for intervening against Mexico/Brazil/Peru).

I didn't bother with Mexico because England and Portugal were already there, and I didn't want to spend ADM coring native provinces or dealing with rebels, plus no naval supplies. I also didn't bother with Texas/Louisiana because my North American colonies are powerful enough to take whatever I want from that area if needed, so I've been forming my own colony in Brazil for anti-Castile purposes and taking key provinces in the Ivory Coast node.

If I were to do it again, I'd first focus on grabbing all of the non-arctic coastal Canadian provinces because there's a high chance of naval supplies there, and then go for the Chesapeake. I'd still grab 1-4 islands from the Caribbean so I have an outpost there, but I wouldn't take 5+ for the colony because you may want a trade fleet in the Caribbean (I have 130 that I want to place there but because they don't use colonial ports for whatever reason they keep taking attrition and going to my port in Cadiz -- I'll have to wait for dip tech 21/22 for the naval attrition upgrade I guess). Right now 30+ ducats flow from the Caribbean to Seville and I can't do much about it because English Channel doesn't connect directly there so I don't get a downstream trade modifier. Anyway, best thing is to dominate St. Lawrence and Ivory Coast for trade purposes, and Chesapeake for naval supplies. In a past game with Norway back in 1.5 I ignored South America entirely, but that made it significantly more difficult to fight colonies there. It's much better to have your own colonial troops nearby to assist, and ideally to have stronger colonies than the Iberians.

As I want to play out my own game (on normal, sadly), I wonder how you find the colonial game now. Before, I could with very active colony stealing and a bit of luck manage to lock out all the main colonizers. Now that is impossible I think, so where would it be best to focus the colonists? And you use Expansion instead of Religious as #1 adm group, good for the colonies but have you not had much trouble with the heretic provinces?

My initial conversion to Protestantism was very easy, the only negative result was a slight income loss until everything was the correct religion. Later on when I integrated Novgorod, I had a couple of revolts but by the time I'm sure you'll have near 100k troops and a strong income for mercenaries -- it was only 2-3 stacks of 17-25k, so as long as you have a single stack of 30-40k and reinforce after each fight you shouldn't take many casualties -- I'd rather spend a few thousand manpower than an entire idea group, plus the Expansion+Exploration policy is fantastic, the extra dip relation is great, and the +20% global trade is huge. The only revolts I've had problems with are Castilian patriots in the colonies I took in Africa: they're not a big deal, just annoying, especially because they popped before I finished coring provinces and sieged them down before my fleet arrived with an army. After the period of nationalism it was no longer an issue.

 

[Frungy78]

Since Norway already gets an explorer and colonist via national ideas, I find exploration to be a huge waste unless you were seriously going for a colonial game. Of course there's nothing wrong with that, but I can't stand having a full idea tree wasted on something I could get for free, albeit slower. Norway can't really colonize until DIP 7 anyway, so I don't see a point to taking it 1st or really 2nd. I'd rather expand into Europe, which requires manpower/force limit (quantity) and becoming emperor (diplo).

Because of the diplo malus to integrating vassals, I tend to integrate two at the same time, timing it such that both finish on the same month. Then I wait for the malus to go away, and repeat. As such, I really value extra diplo slots and diplomats, hence why I went diplomatic -> quantity -> influence.

It's about 1520 now, and I have vassal/annexed Finland, Denmark, Novgorod, and Livonian Order. I ate Sweden and Muscovy, and took Lubeck. I have OPM Chernigov and Burgundy (succession fired) as vassals, and will feed them cores back in my next wars. Poland was close to forming Commonwealth, so I made them spit out Mazovia to block them. I also have Scotland + 2 English provinces as a vassal, and plan to feed them England. I'm protestant, and am DoW'ing most of the HRE via co-belligerents to convert everyone to protestantism... not sure if this is correct or not. Like I DoW Hansa who is allied to 3 minor HRE nations, and they bring their minor allies along. I'm allied with Austria who is Catholic, but will turn on them soon to feed Burgundy and make them less of a threat for the religious league.

My income was mediocre until I took Lubeck (reduced AE from influence, a claim and an event made it possible without a coalition).

So how do I ensure I'm the leader of the protestant league? Is it by whoever joins first, or whoever's largest? And if I win the league wars as leader and am a member of the HRE, I become emperor? Or I have to butter up relations with the current protestant electors before starting the war?

 

[maquis196]

Colonising with national ideas with Norway would mean being a little late to the party (if you were interesting in the Caribbean), plus only 1 coloniser which means you'll be a minor bit part player.

With exploration + your idea, you can rival anyone in the world for pumping out colonies. So as you say, it depends on what game you wanna play. I'm currently debating about taking expansion as well since technically I have Siberia to colonise due to me taking out Muscovy, and if I dont, another European power will (but screw that 50% min autonomy though).

something like 30yrs to integrate novgorod, damn it. Im hoping Finland will take some of this land, otherwise ill have to turn muscovy into a march to guard against Ottomans/Golden Horde.

 

[Thrake]

Is it possible to form Scandinavia and get the achievement? Can vassals hold some wood provinces and me still getting the achievement?

For those who understand it, the code:

achievement_norwegian_wood = {
	id = 41
	
	possible = {
		ironman = yes
		start_date = 1444.11.11
		tag = NOR
	}
	
	happened = {
		NOT = {
			any_province = {
				trade_goods = naval_supplies
				NOT = { country_or_vassal_holds = NOR }
			}
		}
	}
}

 

[ahyangyi]

Is it possible to form Scandinavia and get the achievement? Can vassals hold some wood provinces and me still getting the achievement?

For those who understand it, the code:

achievement_norwegian_wood = {
	id = 41
	
	possible = {
		ironman = yes
		start_date = 1444.11.11
		tag = NOR
	}
	
	happened = {
		NOT = {
			any_province = {
				trade_goods = naval_supplies
				NOT = { country_or_vassal_holds = NOR }
			}
		}
	}
}

I guess you have to stay Norway to earn that achievement. Vassal holding naval supplies is OK though.

(BTW luckily they didn't update the requirements to include Tropical Wood!)

 

[Dr. B]

something like 30yrs to integrate novgorod, damn it. Im hoping Finland will take some of this land, otherwise ill have to turn muscovy into a march to guard against Ottomans/Golden Horde.

A long time indeed
How large are they (approximately, basetax) and what are your diplo rep/modifiers for this?
Does orthodox count as your religion +1 for annexation purposes?
(Guess I am asking if it is only state religion or heretics as well that give +1.)

 

[Attalus]

I guess you have to stay Norway to earn that achievement. Vassal holding naval supplies is OK though.

(BTW luckily they didn't update the requirements to include Tropical Wood!)

You can become Scandinavia and still earns the achievement since you started as Norway

 

[Thrake]

I guess you have to stay Norway to earn that achievement. Vassal holding naval supplies is OK though.

(BTW luckily they didn't update the requirements to include Tropical Wood!)

You can become Scandinavia and still earns the achievement since you started as Norway

Alright, thanks. Then I'll keep my Teutonic march (a must with their militaristic ideas and all the core naval supplies they have; cheap return core and powerful vassal) and will go for Scandinavia.

 

[maquis196]

A long time indeed
How large are they (approximately, basetax) and what are your diplo rep/modifiers for this?
Does orthodox count as your religion +1 for annexation purposes?
(Guess I am asking if it is only state religion or heretics as well that give +1.)

Basically starting Novgorod at this point + Tver and yaraslavl. Maybe an extra 8BT from muscovy provinces. You get a base +1, Orthodox doesn't count for another +1 (so keep that in mind when changing religions from your vassals), I did get a +2 diplo rep advisor which is the only reason ill do this in 26yrs. I built an embassy just so I could still do other things in the meantime. So yeah, a long time, theyve been a good vassal though, those Russian lands are pita to fight on/siege.

 

[Frungy78]

I read that becoming HRE or Scandanavia will NOT give you the achievement, since it checks your current tag (country_or_vassal_holds = NOR).

 

[maquis196]

and I find its rubbish as well, as ive said before, stay Norway! The 10% tax bonus for 10yrs isn't worth the extra revolt risk for that time and you'll miss out on glorious "Norway" written everywhere!

Denmark and Sweden will end up accepted cultures long before then anyway, so meh. No benefit.

 

[Golradaer]

So how do I ensure I'm the leader of the protestant league? Is it by whoever joins first, or whoever's largest? And if I win the league wars as leader and am a member of the HRE, I become emperor? Or I have to butter up relations with the current protestant electors before starting the war?

The most powerful member of the league becomes the leader, so given your current position you should be the leader. You don't become emperor automatically, all of the electors stay the same but they're forced to elect a Protestant emperor. As I said in my game, Bohemia was chosen initially, then a bit later it flipped to Saxony, and now finally I should get it in the next few years. Definitely set up your alliances with electors prior to the war and max out relations before you agree to a peace agreement.

 

[Thrake]

and I find its rubbish as well, as ive said before, stay Norway! The 10% tax bonus for 10yrs isn't worth the extra revolt risk for that time and you'll miss out on glorious "Norway" written everywhere!

Denmark and Sweden will end up accepted cultures long before then anyway, so meh. No benefit.

I was hoping to share events with others countries from Scandinavia, but looks like it won't. I guess you're right, I'll just paint it all in light blue.

 

[maquis196]

I was hoping to share events with others countries from Scandinavia, but looks like it won't. I guess you're right, I'll just paint it all in light blue.

Oh that would be awesome, 100% worth doing if that happened, if only to bring something interesting to your game. The Scandinavia blue isn't too bad, its the flag I find rubbish. I kinda wish you could change the flag to the proper Norwegian one perhaps but otoh, you can post screenshots without the "yeah I'm scandinavia, but I started as Norway". Always good