Strategies for Norway in 1.8

[Frungy78]

For Norwegian Wood, do you recommend becoming emperor and getting the vassal horde? Do you have to stay as Norway, or can you form Scandanavia?

So far, I got independence and gave Hansa 3 territories, joined the HRE, Sweden DoW'd Livonian order and died so I took a bunch of provinces from Sweden and released Finland as my Vassal. When Muscovy attacks Novgorod, I plan to vulture in and feed Finland further. Not sure if I want Finland as a march though.

After that, I guess I'll vassalize Denmark then look toward Scotland. If I try to go for HRE though, I'd have to go diplomatic instead of exploration first... then again, I can't reach the new world until dip tech 7 though.

 

[Golradaer]

For Norwegian Wood, do you recommend becoming emperor and getting the vassal horde? Do you have to stay as Norway, or can you form Scandanavia?

So far, I got independence and gave Hansa 3 territories, joined the HRE, Sweden DoW'd Livonian order and died so I took a bunch of provinces from Sweden and released Finland as my Vassal. When Muscovy attacks Novgorod, I plan to vulture in and feed Finland further. Not sure if I want Finland as a march though.

After that, I guess I'll vassalize Denmark then look toward Scotland. If I try to go for HRE though, I'd have to go diplomatic instead of exploration first... then again, I can't reach the new world until dip tech 7 though.

I think going for HRE is the way to do it. The question is how. I converted to Protestant, so I can't actually become Emperor until the Religious League War happens (If we get stomped by the Catholics I'll be sad, lol). It's probably safer to stay Catholic, because the only major nation that reliably flips Protestant is England.

About Finland: marches are best when you have a fairly constant front and when you'd have culture issues. If you feed the Livonian Order to Finland, it'll become your new front against Lithuania when you're done with Muscovy. You'll have Novgorod as a vassal too by this point, but its ideas are pretty poor for fighting wars, and once it has all of its cores you'll gain Russian as an accepted culture when you integrate. The Finnish land is poor, so it's not of much benefit to hold directly, and as a march it can maintain around 15-20k as well as a navy on its own.

 

[maquis196]

What about feeding novgorod to finland? Finland has good conversion bonuses as well which will help. Novogorod can be integrated once youve used them to crush Muscovy with the vassal CB thing. I know it would be slow, but integrating a massive novgorod will instantly make Russian accepted and you can still start slowly feeding province to finland over time.

I'm against Sweden being a march simple because theyre accepted culture, Id rather have the lands myself, it just sucks because unless you can grab prussia, they would make for a very very wonderful attack dog. Do they keep "lucky nation" status even as a vassal/march? You'd also need to grow massively so Sweden always feels like a vassal, ive had them turn hostile before. I think once you owned UK/Russia you should be fine, until then...

 

[Carmilla]

It may be because the Norwegian fanboys are already busy looting Europe in CK2, pretending Stamford Bridge never happened :sad:

I don't blame them. Like I said earlier, the period covered by EUIV is the one we'd like to forget about because it only brings out resentment as from our point of view it was pretty much one disaster after another. Not exactly rational perhaps, but thats emotions for you.

 

[ahyangyi]

Any attention spent on Norway in any game surprises me, but I'm used to Norway being the nation that people either don't know about or don't care about. Different people, different views, different tastes and all that.

I love entering the HRE as Norway after I found out that one of our kings managed to be nominated as a potential emperor by one of the popes. Though I took skåne to accomplish and not jylland myself. Though maybe I'll try it that way instead next time I do a Norway run.

But the CK2 1066 start is surely focused on Norway (and England and Normandy)!

 

[maquis196]

Well it does make for some good conversion saves. Old Gods Norway was damned powerful with raiding. I plan on doing a ck2 to eu4 run one day. Just not sure if I want to start as Norway though, in ck2 theyre easy mode. We play them in eu4 because theyre at least a little challanging compared to the lucky nations.

Maybe some anglo-saxon kingdom, and convert them to Norse (sorry "Germanic"). Anyway, im digressing!

 

[Golradaer]

Here's 1552. Finland is a march and Novgorod is a vassal. I'm allied to Great Britain, Poland+Lithuania, and Austria, but I'm also the leader of the Protestant League.

France imploded rather early following consecutive/simultaneous wars against Burgundy, Austria, and England.

Also, Danzig was released by Brandenburg in around 1447 and it's been around as an OPM ever since. I've been waiting until I'm ready to betray Poland to take it myself.

I've also enjoyed watching Nogai and Ryazan jumping on Muscovy after I carpet siege it; Ryazan actually had a 6 province Golden Horde as its vassal at one point, and given its good NIs I think I'll make it a march to defend my southern/eastern border with the Muslims.

In preparation for the Religious Leagues, I wanted to forcibly convert any HRE minors that I could, and I was able to make use of the "support rebels" CB (protestant rebels) against Wurzburg which ended up allowing me to convert it along with Frankfurt and Alsace -- in the process, I obtained about 3000 gold from Frankfurt that it'd been hoarding all game.

 

[Frungy78]

So if I joined the HRE at the start as Norway, and become emperor through diplomacy (no vassalizations), how do I turn protestant? Until the 30 years war starts, only catholics can be emperor, right? If I convert, I lose the emperorship? Should I just stay catholic then? I've already pissed off the pope day 1 to get the stab and revolt risk reduction.

 

[Golradaer]

If you become emperor through diplomacy, then there isn't much reason to turn protestant, is there? You'd lose the emperorship which would make the early diplomacy efforts rather meaningless.

In my case, I've always had too much AE with Saxony/Brandenburg/Bohemia and no relation slots to ally electors, meaning there was no hope of getting elected normally. My plan is to let that AE burn off now that my major eastern conquests are complete and ally electors instead of major catholic nations whose help I no longer need. Assuming I win the Religious League War, I believe that I'll be able to hand out new electorates to a few protestant countries, so I'll choose the ones that I helped/released recently, which should be enough to get me elected.

If you stay Catholic, you can use the "Revoke Restraint of Appeals" decision to start gaining papal authority again once you're large enough to have a shot at becoming papal controller.

Another note: I would highly recommend conquering Hamburg and Lubeck when you have the opportunity. My trade income is about on par with England's due to my strangehold on the Lubeck node. When you take each city, you'll get a LOT of AE due to their high base tax and proximity to HRE states, so only do it when you have a break in wars. I took Lubeck in my first war with the Hansa and released Hamburg, then took Hamburg later on following a war with Muscovy.

 

[Frungy78]

If you become emperor through diplomacy, then there isn't much reason to turn protestant, is there? You'd lose the emperorship which would make the early diplomacy efforts rather meaningless.

In my case, I've always had too much AE with Saxony/Brandenburg/Bohemia and no relation slots to ally electors, meaning there was no hope of getting elected normally. My plan is to let that AE burn off now that my major eastern conquests are complete and ally electors instead of major catholic nations whose help I no longer need. Assuming I win the Religious League War, I believe that I'll be able to hand out new electorates to a few protestant countries, so I'll choose the ones that I helped/released recently, which should be enough to get me elected.

If you stay Catholic, you can use the "Revoke Restraint of Appeals" decision to start gaining papal authority again once you're large enough to have a shot at becoming papal controller.

I'm confused by your second paragraph- are you planning on becoming emperor after the religious league war? I'd really like to become emperor before that, so I can release all the dead prince nations before their cores expire in 1594 and gain IA that way. I guess I'm staying Catholic then... how do I revoke restratin of appeals though- how do I get the pope to improve my relations to 100?

 

[Golradaer]

What about feeding novgorod to finland? Finland has good conversion bonuses as well which will help. Novogorod can be integrated once youve used them to crush Muscovy with the vassal CB thing. I know it would be slow, but integrating a massive novgorod will instantly make Russian accepted and you can still start slowly feeding province to finland over time.

I'm against Sweden being a march simple because theyre accepted culture, Id rather have the lands myself, it just sucks because unless you can grab prussia, they would make for a very very wonderful attack dog. Do they keep "lucky nation" status even as a vassal/march? You'd also need to grow massively so Sweden always feels like a vassal, ive had them turn hostile before. I think once you owned UK/Russia you should be fine, until then...

Are you saying integrate Novgorod and then sell their provinces to Finland? I think it makes sense to give Finland all of Novgorod's Finnish culture provinces as well as the Sami/Karelian ones, then just feed Muscovy to Novgorod until you're ready to integrate. I started integrating Novgorod myself, and it's going to take about 20 years and cost several hundred diplo points -- quite inexpensive, really.

I remember reading in patch notes somewhere that "major powers" are intended to be difficult to hold as vassals (relations/attitude modifier of some sort, I assume). I'd like to have Brandenburg, but vassalizing an elector will be bad for IA when I'm emperor. I agree that Sweden isn't worth keeping -- it's better to hold that land directly. Now, I *would* like to have Teutonic Order as a vassal...

 

[Golradaer]

I'm confused by your second paragraph- are you planning on becoming emperor after the religious league war? I'd really like to become emperor before that, so I can release all the dead prince nations before their cores expire in 1594 and gain IA that way. I guess I'm staying Catholic then... how do I revoke restratin of appeals though- how do I get the pope to improve my relations to 100?

Yes, I'll let you know how it goes, but I shouldn't have any problem becoming a Protestant emperor in the next ten years unless the electors refuse to vote for me after winning the league war and enforcing Protestantism. That would leave me 30 years to release HRE minors before the cores run out in 1594. It all depends on when the Religious Leagues fire in your game, though, and how long the war takes. My League fired in 1550 and Austria is already weak due to a recent war, so I suspect mine will be over pretty quickly.

About Revoking Restraint of Appeals: I can't look at it anymore because I lost it when I converted, but does the relations modifier with the pope decrease over time? If you're serious about becoming emperor early, then you probably want to plan your whole strategy around it: don't enact Restraint at the start, pick Influence/Diplomacy, etc.

Let me know how your approach works out. While extra IA is nice, there isn't any urgent need to become emperor as compared to the advantage gained from knocking out Muscovy before it's too powerful and mass early colonization (especially the eastern coast of NA -- I've found 6 naval supplies out of around 7-8 colonies there). Due to Exploration+Expansion+Norway NI+Policy, I have 5 colonists working to set up colonial nations in Canada, NA, Caribbean, and Colombia so when I have to fight Portugal/Castile for naval supply colonies I have local forces to assist.

 

[Frungy78]

I went diplomatic first, then quantity. I figure I can always just swipe colonies later on, and I get explorers and colonists without exploration/expansion. I'll probably take expansion later to get into Asia. I plan to take influence next though. Or do you suggest religious if I go protestant?

To revoke statute, I need the pope to improve relations with me. The malus went away and we're both at +10/+10, but he's busy improving other people's relationships.

Guess I'll go protestant and try to win the religious league war. My first king starts with poor legitimacy, and I unfortunately took a weak claim heir (he was 4/6/4 though). My legitimacy is 7, so I'm far far away from becoming emperor.

 

[Carmilla]

But the CK2 1066 start is surely focused on Norway (and England and Normandy)!

More or less which is a surprise to me as it wasn't what I'd expected. A chance to make sure the mistake at Stamford never happened is always a welcome thing though!

 

[maquis196]

Are you saying integrate Novgorod and then sell their provinces to Finland? I think it makes sense to give Finland all of Novgorod's Finnish culture provinces as well as the Sami/Karelian ones, then just feed Muscovy to Novgorod until you're ready to integrate. I started integrating Novgorod myself, and it's going to take about 20 years and cost several hundred diplo points -- quite inexpensive, really.

I remember reading in patch notes somewhere that "major powers" are intended to be difficult to hold as vassals (relations/attitude modifier of some sort, I assume). I'd like to have Brandenburg, but vassalizing an elector will be bad for IA when I'm emperor. I agree that Sweden isn't worth keeping -- it's better to hold that land directly. Now, I *would* like to have Teutonic Order as a vassal...

Yeah basically. Novgorod is only useful for its CBs against Muscovy. Once theyre dealt with, integrate novgorod, Feed Finland and thats your super eastern decent march sorted. Just remember they have a 60BT limit which would probably stop all of Russian territory going to them.

Looking at your map, it just made me realise that having a GB as an ally where they actually land troops and use their navy to your advantage might be a good thing. Hhmmmmmm. This changes things for me massively, im so used to killing them but then never being able to take on muscovy.... how interesting. I do agree about taking the Hansa for yourself though. That income is amazing.

One question though, how much pressure is GB putting on the North Sea to divert trade to the channel?

 

[Frungy78]

Taking Lubeck seems impossible without forming a coalition. I'm not sure how you'd pull it off.

I prefer taking Scotland and GB since it's part of your trade network. And once you take Russia, there isn't much room to expand until you become emperor.

 

[Golradaer]

So I'm part of the way through my Religious League war, and while it was going very well at the start, once Burgundy joined in along with Aragon/Castile/France/Venice/Austria, and Portugal white-peaced on our side, it's not looking good for the Protestant cause. GB is less useful than expected: they landed 25k in Europe and then sent stacks to attack Spanish colonies. At least we wiped Castile's navy. Does anyone know if conceding defeat results in the Peace of Westphalia or does it have to be a white peace? I'm at around 26% warscore, but I won't be winning a war of attrition so I need to end this.

Fortunately, 5/7 electors are Protestant and one is Reformed, so I should still be fine becoming Emperor so long as Westphalia takes effect.

I went diplomatic first, then quantity. I figure I can always just swipe colonies later on, and I get explorers and colonists without exploration/expansion. I'll probably take expansion later to get into Asia. I plan to take influence next though. Or do you suggest religious if I go protestant?

To revoke statute, I need the pope to improve relations with me. The malus went away and we're both at +10/+10, but he's busy improving other people's relationships.

Guess I'll go protestant and try to win the religious league war. My first king starts with poor legitimacy, and I unfortunately took a weak claim heir (he was 4/6/4 though). My legitimacy is 7, so I'm far far away from becoming emperor.

I think expansion is a lot more important than religious. With the 10 year conversion bonus you get when you go Protestant you'll be able to convert everything in Norway/Sweden/Denmark without issue, the only questionable thing is Russia -- Russian should be an accepted culture when I integrate Novgorod, so I don't imagine having severe problems.

Yeah basically. Novgorod is only useful for its CBs against Muscovy. Once theyre dealt with, integrate novgorod, Feed Finland and thats your super eastern decent march sorted. Just remember they have a 60BT limit which would probably stop all of Russian territory going to them.

Looking at your map, it just made me realise that having a GB as an ally where they actually land troops and use their navy to your advantage might be a good thing. Hhmmmmmm. This changes things for me massively, im so used to killing them but then never being able to take on muscovy.... how interesting. I do agree about taking the Hansa for yourself though. That income is amazing.

One question though, how much pressure is GB putting on the North Sea to divert trade to the channel?

I think Great Britain is a very useful ally. With their navy, you won't have issues against Spain/Portugal on the sea. Perhaps more importantly, if you don't ally them it's very likely they'll become a rival, and GB+Spain or Portugal will wreck your fleets, so that would be bad.

Taking out Muscovy is amazing. The east is now entirely secure unless Nogai decides to be suicidal and attack me, but I doubt that will happen. With my current position, I can focus everything on Poland+Lithuania while I colonize.

About the North Sea node: GB has a merchant collecting there, and they only have 20% of the trade power in it, resulting in about 4 ducats. I haven't even started spamming trade buildings in Norway yet.

Taking Lubeck seems impossible without forming a coalition. I'm not sure how you'd pull it off.

I prefer taking Scotland and GB since it's part of your trade network. And once you take Russia, there isn't much room to expand until you become emperor.

Yes, there will be several coalitions against you, but so long as you use your diplomats to improve relations on the stronger powers nearby (like Bohemia), it's not a problem. I've had to beat down Pomerania/Bremen/Friesland/Luneberg etc. multiple times, but you can just let Poland+Lithuania clean them up. The thing is, if you don't take out the Hansa, not only will they be hostile and a major pain in coalition wars, they'll steal a lot of your trade -- which makes up 75% of my total income.

For expansion, you're going to have to take out Lithuania, and therefore Poland, and then over to Hungary and Ottomans, so it's nice to have a peaceful western front.

 

[Alech]

Well then... I got more than I hoped for in terms of tips and strategies for Norway. Thanks all!

 

[Denkt]

What about this plan for a trade focus game:
Somehow get independence from Denmark, don't know how much this is needed because as long as you are in PU you will have the protection of Denmark so you could maybe do without an army and a navy with only light ships so independence may be put on hold for quite a while, but you may be far better of getting it early and somehow expand your country.

Get these ideas early: Expansion, Trade, Quality and Maritime as 4 idea.
I would likely pick trade first because it will help your poor income.
Quality is mostly for quality-trade policy which give you an mega 20% trade efficiency, expansion-trade policy give you trade steering and an additional 10% trade efficiency.
Use your exploration idea to get knowledge of asia, purchase fleet basing rights and start dominate trade in asia, you can bet on having a minimum of 60% trade efficiency over the locals (30% from policies, 20% from ahead in time from diplo tech and 10% from trade ideas) which should both allow you to dominate some trade with only merchants and your trade fleet and that trade will give alot of income thanks to that trade efficiency, asian goods tend to be rather valuable to comapred to European.

That trade should allow you to dominate Scandinavia, which in turn allow a larger fleet which in turn makes you much more powerful, add in maritime and expansion-maritime policy and you can get a much larger fleet with no problem.
Use expansion cb to turn asian into protectorates or do an african conquest, to get into coring range of asia and take some of that valuable land an create trade companies to improve trade in that area.

Then I think you can just dominate the world.

I plan to use this strategy as Norway which I plan to play shortly.

 

[maquis196]

A really good way to stay safe from the world is to not take land on the mainland and just sit back in the straights with your navy. I've won against massive coalitions before (as a side note, any Burgundy that survives tend to be a royal pain in the ass...) anyway, with some creative straight blocking, you can allow some armies into Fyn and keep them there, the AI will get bored and send another stack via Finland. I was stack wiping everyone due to hammering every army that came my way.

What I came here to say though is that I expect the "use vassal CB" thing to be nerfed soon, for instance, don't release Finland in your war with Sweden if you can siege them down, just release all but one (maybe a core in the middle of Finland), then when the time comes, you get a cb for re-conquest that gives you 25% AE!!! I was able to use that to completely annex Sweden with basically no coalition against me (and due to my previous war it was only 96% OE.

The same thing works great with Novgorod, put the hurt on Muscovy before they could expand, restored all but one territory to Novgorod, next war will be the full annex, sell provinces to Novgorod, integrate Novgorod, sell provinces to my Finnish March thing. Speaking of marches, it looks like Teutonic order will create Prussia soon, yay, super March coming up!